ruling

[morgant]

Playing 1-2-3 NL at foxwoods. First off, what is with the button posting 1$? Is that suppose to stimulate action? The standard bet EP raises to $25, to me with 67suited. I call, another caller, a short stack after me goes all-in for $27, the EP player now asks if he can re-raise off that?!? I am thinking the answer is an obvious no. I assume he has a vulnerable hand and didnt want multiple action and now wants to isolate the all-in. The dealer says, yes, it is no limit. The guy next to me who is new and knows everyone and has a wad of c-notes and a couple hundred in greens protests as do I since we are the other callers. The floor gets called over and says he can raise????

[JKratzer]

I'm not real familiar with the rules regarding casino play, but I'm under the impression his re-raise would be allowed. This is how I've always played, but I haven't played NL in a casino.

I guess you weren't asking, but while I'm at it, I don't think your call with 67s was good, I'd lay it down for such a big raise.

[crockpot]

in a really lax home game, maybe this reraise would be allowed. if they allow it in a cardroom, the floorperson and dealer shold both be fired on the spot.

[morgant]

that was the standard raise on any hand in this game, there was a couple grand on the table, and it was only being played i think 7 handed at the time, in my opinion it was a fine call especially from the player who made the raise he would defend his raise no matter what the flop, if i hit a nice flop i could have racked in huge pot

[ackid026]

floormen at foxwoods are the worst, not to get into great detail, but this raise can only be called in 100 percent of casinos

[Horrible Player]

why cant he re-raise? What is the logic behind this?

[Horrible Player]

Since when does foxwoods offer NL. What are the blinds and min/max buy-ins?

[morgant]

thats what i thought, i couldnt believe the floor came over and allowed him to make another $50 raise and push me and the other guy off our hands. they were shaky on a lot of rules in this game and at times it was a circus side show. and this is at the biggest room on the east coast, and the only casino in new england

[morgant]

this was the first time i have seen it. the blinds were 1-2-3. min. buy in was $100, most had about a grand in front of them. later on we switched to 5-5 blinds. it was a sunday afternoon when i was playing. rake $5/half hour

[tpir90036]

in NL a raise has to at least be equal to the previous amount. so if you raise me $25 i can't raise you $2....unless i am going all-in. and an all-in has to at least be half of the raise amount (if the short stack went all-in for $38 for example) to re-open the betting. otherwise it is just considered a call (even though it is slightly more than a call). the original better is basically raising himself in this situation.

[sam h]

morgan,

i hope both you and the preflop raiser had pretty deep stacks for a 1-2-3 game if you're making that call. i would want 500 at least.

the ruling was terrible. no way he should be allowed to reraise.

[_And1_]

Thats an awful ruling just as crockpot said, they should be fired at the spot. Of course the dealer could be excused if he/she were to be a straight out newbie, but the manager, learn the rules for gods sake.

[Malone Brown]

Don't all online casinos let you re-raise in this situation? I don't get it.

[nicky g]

No, they don't.

[Zag]

Party Poker had a brief period when they let you reraise in that situation, and then it was changed back to the correct way.

By the way, tpir, I believe you have the ruling incorrect, also. In NL or PL, an all-in reraise has to be the FULL amount of the previous bet/raise to reopen the betting. The half amount that you quoted is only for limit games. (I am about 85% sure of this. Is anybody 100% sure?)

[Guy McSucker]

and an all-in has to at least be half of the raise amount (if the short stack went all-in for $38 for example) to re-open the betting.

... or something.

This rule really varies. The one played at Stars, and several other places I am familiar with, is that in order to reopen the betting, a raise has to be a real raise, not an under-raise, i.e. at least as large as the previous raise. An under-raise is only allowed when going all-in, and does not reopen the betting.

Another version used in some European cardrooms is that a raise must be at least as large as the bet to the player making the raise. E.g. player A bets 10, B must raise at least 10; suppose he makes it 30. Now if C wants to raise, it must be at least 30 more. Suppose C folds and it gets back to A with no further raises, and A wants to raise, he can make it 20 more. Confused yet?

The "half a raise reopens the betting" rule is more commonly applied in limit poker I think.

The implementation of this in online poker is very very shaky to say the least. I thought Foxwoods might have a real set of rules. Shame.

Guy.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I've played a good bit of PL and NL at Foxwoods. The ruling was absolutely wrong.

In most casinos, the rule is a raise must be a full raise, or the original bettor/raiser and any intervening callers cannot raise, but only call the all-in. Of course anybody yet to act can still raise. ;-)

However, at Foxwoods, the all-in raise re-opens the betting if it is half or more of the minimum raise.

Here's an example.

player A bets 50. Player B calls 50. Player C Raises to 150. Player D goes all-in.

If Player D were not going all-in, his minimum raise would be $100 more to a total of $250. In most rooms, if his all-in is anything less than $250, Player C cannot raise when it gets back to him, but only call or fold. Players A and B can call, fold, or raise when it gets back to them, as they are raising Player C, so to speak.

At Foxwoods, if D went all-in for $200 or more, Player C could raise when it got back, because the raise was half or more of the minimum raise.

In your case, the betting went from $3 to $25, a raise of $22. Therefore, half a raise is $11 more, or a total of $36. The correct ruling was since the all-in was for less than $36, the original $25 raiser cannot raise again.

Unfortunately, many of the floormen at Foxwoods make a lot of very wrong rulings.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Horrible Player]

where are the officials? have a link?

[scrub]

When I played at Foxwoods over Thanksgiving I was dismayed. The floorpeople and dealers were horrendous. My friend was sitting the Pot Limit, and on the turn in a hand, the player UTG was passed over and/or checked. It was checked around, and the UTG player then claimed that he had not had a chance to act, and claimed he wanted to bet the pot. The dealer allowed the obvious angle-shooting bet. The button started crying bloody murder and demanded a ruling. The game was in the "atrium," and the floorperson for the area was nowhere to be found. The dealer just shipped the pot and started dealing the next hand, despite the button's continued objections. It was really absurd. Makes me glad I live in NJ...;)

scrub

[Horrible Player]

Thats awful. I go to Foxwoods about once a month and play 5/10 limit. I guess it is a little more complicated for the NL and PL games. Do u know where to find official rules on the Web?

[Horrible Player]

Here it is (http://www.diamondcs.net/~thecoach/RobsPkrRules3.htm)

Found the rules


SECTION 14 - NO LIMIT AND POT-LIMIT

A no-limit or pot-limit betting structure for a game gives it a different character from limit poker, requiring a separate set of rules in many situations. All the rules for limit games apply to no-limit and pot-limit games, except as noted in this section. No-limit means that the amount of a wager is limited only by the table stakes rule, so any part or all of a player’s chips may be wagered. The rules of no-limit play also apply to pot-limit play, except that a bet may not exceed the pot size. For those rules that apply only to no-limit and pot-limit lowball, see the sub-section at the end of “Section 11 – Lowball.”

NO-LIMIT RULES


1. The number of raises in any betting round is unlimited.

2. All bets must be at least equal to the minimum bring-in, unless the player is going all-in.

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)

Example: Player A bets $100 and Player B raises $100 more, making the total bet $200. If Player C goes all in for less than $300 total (not a full $100 raise), and Player A calls, then Player B has no option to raise again, because he wasn’t fully raised. (Player A could have raised, because Player B raised.)

4. A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action.

5. If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement.

6. If a call is short due to a counting error, the amount must be corrected, even if the bettor has shown down a superior hand.

7. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered needs some protection. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.

Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)

8. A player who says "raise" is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player’s hands come to rest outside the pot area. (This rule is used because no-limit play may require a large number of chips be put into the pot.)

9. A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot. (This includes acting on the forced bet of the big blind.)

10. If a player tries to bet or raise less than the legal minimum and has more chips, the wager must be increased to the proper size. (This does not apply to a player who has unintentionally put too much in to call.) The wager is brought up to the sufficient amount only, no greater size.

11. All wagers may be required to be in the same denomination of chip (or larger) used for the minimum bring-in, even if smaller chips are used in the blind structure. If this is done, the smaller chips do not play except in quantity, even when going all-in.

12. In non-tournament games, one optional live straddle is allowed. The player who posts the straddle has last action for the first round of betting and is allowed to raise. To straddle, a player must be on the immediate left of the big blind, and must post an amount twice the size of the big blind.

13. In all no-limit and pot-limit games, the house has the right to place a maximum time limit for taking action on your hand. The clock may be put on someone by the dealer as directed by a floorperson, if a player requests it. If the clock is put on you when you are facing a bet, you will have one additional minute to act on your hand. You will have a ten-second warning, after which your hand is dead if you have not acted.

14. The cardroom does not condone "insurance" or any other “proposition” wagers. The management will decline to make decisions in such matters, and the pot will be awarded to the best hand. Players are asked to refrain from instigating proposition wagers in any form. The players are allowed to agree to deal twice (or three times) when someone is all-in. “Dealing twice” means the pot is divided in two, with each portion being dealt for separately.

[tpir90036]

yeah, you are right. i looked it up and realized that the half of a raise rule only applies to limit.

the euro way is kind of goofy.... go figure /images/graemlins/wink.gif