Phil Helmuth

[thomastem]

I wish we could get him on this forum. I would like to see how he would play a tourney hand different than a ring game hand. This is an area not talked about enough IMO.

[whiskeytown]

That's easy...

the way Phil H. would play a hand is that....

he would whine about you sucking out on him before rebuying in a ring game

whereas he would whine about you sucking out on him and get busted off the table in a tourney so you wouldn't have to deal with him anymore...

I mean, come on...you left the door wide open on that one..

/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

at least try to make it a challenge....

RB

[daryn]

poor guy.. you'd think being in the top 3 all time in tournament money would earn respect

[thomastem]

It is one thing to not like Helmuth as a person. Hasn't this guy won more tourneys than Mason, David, and Zee? I haven't heard any negative on his tourney play from any pros other than right after he has knocked someone out. Even Doyle Brunson has praised his tourney play....I guess he sucks to then?

If you don't like the guy don't invite him to dinner but he is a millionaire because of his tourney skills period. Perhaps when I make more money than him and have more bracelets I will come to the otherside and bash him with you.

[El Dukie]

You can respect someone's poker playing ability (as I do, WRT Phil Helmuth) while still finding their behavior in other areas of the game to be lacking (as I do, WRT Phil Helmuth). I don't have any illusions about ever being as good a poker player, but I do think I can conduct myself in a better manner than Phil appears to.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
You can respect someone's poker playing ability (as I do, WRT Phil Helmuth) while still finding their behavior in other areas of the game to be lacking (as I do, WRT Phil Helmuth). I don't have any illusions about ever being as good a poker player, but I do think I can conduct myself in a better manner than Phil appears to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree but I have a question. What if the way he conducts himself is part of his skill (not saying it is why he act like a child)? In other words IF putting people on tilt and intimidating is a part of his game plan and he profits from it does that change the thinking a little.

Basketball fans may remember Dennis Rodman or when the Detroit Pistons were the "Bad Boys". That image helped them win.

An example might be when Helmuth takes a bad beat and whines about how he got drawn out. Yes it irritates everyone and maybe he even got knocked out but if you are a player at that table isn't there an underlying message from Helmuth that the only way he loses is if you get lucky and put a bad beat on him? He is loud enough to send that message not just to his table but all the tables in the damn room. It may actually, and I believe it does, help intimidate players at future tourneys.

The question is whether he does it on purpose or can't help himself.

[Wake up CALL]

"The question is whether he does it on purpose or can't help himself."

You may be the only living human (or animal) who has that as a question rather than an obvious given. BTW, Dennis Rodman got dumped because of his antics, when he played it was because of his rebounding ability not because he looked good in a wedding dress.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
"The question is whether he does it on purpose or can't help himself."

You may be the only living human (or animal) who has that as a question rather than an obvious given. BTW, Dennis Rodman got dumped because of his antics, when he played it was because of his rebounding ability not because he looked good in a wedding dress.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. Rodman did some stupid stuff. On the court he did intimidate players and take them out of their game.

Helmuth chatters his crap even when he is winning. I can't read his mind but whether on purpose or not it does have an effect.

My critters sometimes do this too. For example when my Bison in heat get lathered up at the table it is quite distracting to the other players.

[Wake up CALL]

"Perhaps when I make more money than him and have more bracelets I will come to the otherside and bash him with you. "

Thomastem what relevance is there to this statement by you? Using your logic a coach could never critique one of his players.

"Hasn't this guy won more tourneys than Mason, David, and Zee?"

Again how is this relevant? Hasn't he entered more tournaments than Mason, David and Zee combined? You are falling into the trap that winning a very small percentage of a large number of tournament has merit. Personally I believe the higher percentage of tournaments won (with a minimum number required) would be a much better measure.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]


Again how is this relevant? Hasn't he entered more tournaments than Mason, David and Zee combined? You are falling into the trap that winning a very small percentage of a large number of tournament has merit. Personally I believe the higher percentage of tournaments won (with a minimum number required) would be a much better measure.



[/ QUOTE ]

When people talk about Lerderer and Ivey do you make the same argument? That Helmuth enters every tournament he can is a negative? If he wasn't good he couldn't afford to. I guess Cal Ripken's Iron man record is a farse he needed to play less games to matter.

Helmuth makes money/profit year in and year out. The fact that he enters every tourney he can is a indicator to his stamina to play profitablly.

[Wake up CALL]

I never said it is a negative to enter a lot of tourmnaments. I said it is a poor measure to use the total number of tournament he has won wothout comparing that number to the total number of tourmaments entered. I do not know how to explain this point more simply.

As far as PH making money every year from his poker play I would be willing to lay serious money that that is not so. The fact that he enters many tourneys says nothing about his ability to play profitability. It only proves he has either a large initial bankroll, several well heeled backers or a combination of both. I could afford to enter 50 tourneys a year but that has nothing to do with my results.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, Dennis Rodman got dumped because of his antics, when he played it was because of his rebounding ability not because he looked good in a wedding dress.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm . . . I'd argue that Rodman didn't get dumped because of his antics, but because he was no longer pulling down 20 boards a night. They're willing to overlook a lot in sports as long as you can deliver the goods (see Bill Romanowski and about ten thousand other examples). In Rodman's case, you could even argue that his antics kept him around longer than he would have stayed otherwise due to the audience draw.

[J.R.]

BTW, Dennis Rodman got dumped because of his antics, when he played it was because of his rebounding ability not because he looked good in a wedding dress.


While this is true, don't forget that Rodman was also a great defender (2 time defender of the year) who used these psychological antics to get into the heads of his opponents, taking them off their game and into foul trouble, especially in big games (e.g. Sonics Frank Brickowski in 1996 finals, Utah Karl Malone in 1997 and 1998 finals).

[drewjustdrew]

This analogy does not apply. Cal Ripken's record is that he played a lot of games. It does not show that he was the best or even great at his position, just that he was good enough to keep his job, didn't get injured, and did not pull temper tantrums when it came to salary talks.

To apply it to a tournament player would be to say that he entered more tournaments than anyone else, and never went broke. It would not imply great results, but definitely better than most.

I also doubt that Hellmuth makes money every year. Very unlikely for any tournament player who plays for more than a couple years. Don't forget, his wife makes good money, so he can let prior tournament wins sit in the bank and slowly get lost until another win. He doesn't need the money for living expenses like other players. There was a stretch in the late 90s where he didn't win anything that I can remember. Everything he wrote about back then also appeared to be about trying to turn things around.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
If he wasn't good he couldn't afford to

[/ QUOTE ]

hellmuth also has many backers that help him with buy-ins, along with taking pieces of other players which partially hedges his outcome if he misses the money. there have been many good articles about tourney players and how they fund their roll. and let's remember, he was about broke 1 or 2 years ago.

granted, ill give you he is a great tourney player. great feel for the game. but technical skillwise, he is no where near lederer or other grinders who choose to make a living day in and out in the cardrooms. (as lederer did. he didnt play the tourny circuit 'til this year)

and with his temper, i dont see him grinding a ring game. which he's famous for blowing chips in.

this is also a man who bet $10,000 that AKo was better than AKs. but he is entertaining and breaks the monotony of the game. after all, what is he known for in most circles? whining.

b

[Losing all]

Mason, David, and Zee put out slighty better books though...

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, David, and Zee put out slighty better books though...

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on... You're just saying that because you're not an eagle.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif