Open-raising trash from the posted cut off (aka "one off the button")

[rharless]

What do you think? I have missed my blinds and posted BB+SB in the cutoff.

rharless has 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is CO

Folded to me, rharless(poster) raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds

Flop(5 4/5 SB): K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

rharless bets, Button calls

Turn(3 9/10 BB): 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

rharless checks, Button checks

River(3 9/10 BB): 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

rharless checks, Button checks

--
Note to slavic, I put this HH in the converter and the first line came out "SB folds, UTG folds" though it should be "SB folds, BB folds" (I manually corrected it in the text above).

[Mike Gallo]

Rharless,


I don't like the maneuver, without knowing the players. If everyone will fold then good move. If you made the movejust to make a play, I do not like it.

What prompted you to make this play?

[Nottom]

I think its fine.

Your getting 2.5-1 immediate odds on stealing the blinds. thats too good to pass up aagainst players that will actually fold them on occasion.

[J.R.]

I hope you see that there isn't much to say. This is very dependent on who is on the button and in the blinds, but they would have to be extremely weak tight (both pre-flop and on the flop) as your hand has almost no value (J high) other that its steal equity.

You are risking 1 bet to win 3, or 2 to win between 4 and 5 bets assuming you always bet the flop when called. That's good, but you can also get yourself into trouble here playing a hand with reverse implied odds (ie often you can't play strongly post flop even if you connect).

I don't like my chances here against many Party opponents (who call a lot).

[rharless]

I read a thread on here once, with various respected posters, which said "when it is folded to me in the cutoff and I have posted, I always raise"

So, I decided to give it a try. Problem was that I don't think my post-flop skills are strong enough to make up for this preflop maneuver.

At the point of this hand, I did not yet have clear opinions on the players behind me. Turned out through ongoing play that the button was the table funder.

[Bob T.]

I agree, and I suspect that you won this hand against the button's gut shot draw.

[Mike Gallo]

I read a thread on here once, with various respected posters, which said "when it is folded to me in the cutoff and I have posted, I always raise

I did not realize you posted a late position blind. I get brain dead late in the day. When you said the poster, I thought you meant poster as in 2 + 2 poster. Never mind. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[rharless]

I hope you see that there isn't much to say.

Actually, I think there is. /images/graemlins/smile.gif MG doesn't like it, nottom thinks it's fine -- opposite opinions already from two solid players.

For my reasons that I tried this, see my post above.

My plan was to bet a flop with a J, a 6, an A, or something swing-and-a-miss like 742r. If called, I did not have clear plans for what to do on the turn (unless it improved my hand, obviously).

I don't like my chances here against many Party opponents.

I should have mentioned, this was Party 5-10, which in my mind (despite contrary opinions that have been posted here), is much tougher than 3-6 and down.

I hope slavic chimes into this thread as he was at the table. I don't know if he had reads on the player to add to this thread. At the point where I made this play, I did not know much about any of them, but turned out that button was overall really aggressive (20% PFR). Had I known that I would not have tried the play.

[rharless]

What do you do on the turn?

[CrackerZack]

I love the PF play, sucks the button called. I'd probably bet the turn also. Ni han.

[slavic]

I have the button on my Christmas list now. He was new to the table replacing a decent player before him.

I think the pre-flop raise is perfect. In the CO when it's up to you to open your either going to raise or fold. In this case you have no option to fold. Well you do but isn't that just a little too weak tight?

Unfortunatly the button cold called and the flop was just about as bad as it could come. Still heads up you have a pair and showdown equity.

[Mike Gallo]

Actually, I think there is. MG doesn't like it, nottom thinks it's fine -- opposite opinions already from two solid players.

Count me out. I made an error in my response. I think if you posted and all fold to you, go ahead and steal..I mean raise.

[Nottom]

I would have probably bet since you had a pair. Lots of players like to call flop bets and fold to turn bets.

[Bob T.]

I agree. It is possible that he called with an underpair, or that he had something like QT, JT, etc, and will fold for a big bet, but will take one off for a small bet.

I think the big clue, is what happened preflop. If this player is aware that you are going to raise with just about any cards from your position, he should probably three bet with a very wide variety of hands, including any Ace, and maybe any reasonable King. I don't think he has either of those, and one more bet might be enough to win the hand, and you might still be in the lead. I would bet, and then reassess after I see what happens.

[Bob T.]

I did not know much about any of them, but turned out that button was overall really aggressive (20% PFR). Had I known that I would not have tried the play.

He raises preflop 20% of the time, and he didn't on this hand? Now I REALLY like the turn bet.

[J.R.]

My "not much to say comment" was more in repsonse to the fact that you just posted a Party hand without mentioning the limit, the type/texture of the game, or any reads you had on the 3 remaining players. All I could say is that your bet is getting 3-1 on your steal, but that the big blind should call with a wide range of hands getting 4-1. If your opponents play well, this obviously becomes more marginal. Sorry if that comment was rude /images/graemlins/frown.gif, I just didn't see much room for comment.

Many advocate always open-raising any 2 when folded to their late position post, but I still think that should not always be the case.

[slavic]

He wasn't a maniac he just had very loose preflop raising standard and liked to be a callingstation of you showed aggression.

[rharless]

Your comment wasn't rude. The ommission of the Party 5-10 label was my mistake. Couldn't say much about the texture/players as I hadn't been there long.

This play was a first for me, which is why I posted it. I guess it's more obvious/common than I thought. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[rharless]

Bob T, you win the hand reading trophy for this thread. Spot on. My pair of sixes beat his QTo. What a lovely free card I gave him!

(Note, at the time he cold called my PF raise and flop bet, I did not know he was a 20% PFR'er)