Waiting until the river to raise

[Mike Gallo]

Hi everyone,

I played this hand last night at Party Poker $1-$2. I havent posted a hand here in a while and I found this one an interesting hand to post.

I pick up A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif suited on the button. Two limpers to me and I raise. The small blind folds the big blind calls and everyone else calls.

Flop T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Big blind checks next player bets, player in between calls, I decide to call and not raise the draw and the big blind calls also.

Turn T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

The big blind checks, original better checks, player to act next bets, I call, the big blind folds, the player who bet the flop calls. Three of us to the river and I have the nuts.

River T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

First player to act checks next player bets, I raise both call and I obviously I take it down.

Player one had 9 10 for a flopped two pair the other player had AQ for a rivered straight.

Looking back, I realize it appears I lost some bets by waiting to raise, however I let the player with AQ draw to the second nuts rather cheaply.

Any comments?

[stoxtrader]

flop: I would raise my draw + overcards here in order to try for the free card on the turn if it doesnt hit me.

Turn: nice slowplay, a raise here probably folds AQo

River:I play it the same.

[Brian]

Hi MG,

In general, I do not like waiting until the River to raise, and this case wouldn't have been any different for me. I would have raised the Flop for a variety of reasons. For value, to get a free card on the Turn, etc. Once you have completed your draw on the Turn, you should definitely raise, because your opponents may be willing to call a raise on the Turn chasing a Straight or Flush draw, but would fold on the River if they don't hit.

It's a good thing that the Jack fell on the River, or else you would've missed several big bets from the play with AQ. I also doubt any raising you would've done would've gotten rid of the guy with T9.

-Brian

[Mike Gallo]

Once you have completed your draw on the Turn, you should definitely raise, because your opponents may be willing to call a raise on the Turn chasing a Straight or Flush draw, but would fold on the River if they don't hit.

If I do raise the turn, and I do represent the flush, why would someone with AQ continue to draw dead to a straight.

Granted the player with two pair will call, however I doubt the person on the straight draw would call.

Normally, I would ram the flop the turn and river, however I changed gears a bit for this hand.

[Brian]

Hi MG,

This is low limit hold'em, not the WSOP. Such trickery is not needed and imo will often cost you bets. The player with AQ, who has already committed one bet to the pot on the Turn, will almost certainly call another with his open ended straight draw. Do you know of many typical low limit players who would lay it down here? Even if he is better than your average fish, he would realize that you do not have to have the Flush to raise here. A slowplayed set (although of course *we* would never slowplay a set on such a dangerous board) or high pocket pair are also possibilities. Hell, AK with the Ace of Spades as a semi-bluff could be a possible hand. Of course, that's assuming he is a thinking player. Most likely though, he is a fish, and he's going to call that raise MG. And you're out of your nugget if you think he's going to fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[Mike Gallo]

Brian,

Thanks for the comments.

I will revert back to my ABC style of play /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Brian]

Hi MG,

Sorry, I just don't think that this is a time to deviate from standard procedure... In fact, rarely, if ever, do I get tricky at the lower limits. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Brian

[bunky9590]

Hey MG
I would have popped the flop as well. too many draws are going to call you there.

You can make a case for smooth calling the turn (I'd do that about 50% of the time in that situation if I'm sure I can get overcalls) but I'd just as soon let the str8 draw try and catch. Raising the river is automatic here with the nuts, as nobody put you on it, and on Party, if you bet it , they will call. Nice play. I like to slow it down once in a while to vary the play, as opposed to the ram and jam I get involved in.

[Mike Gallo]

Bunky,

I would have popped the flop as well. too many draws are going to call you there.

I really did think about it, however the last few times I raised in a similar spot everyone folded. Circumstances did change this time, because someone bet into my preflop raise.

I still don't know if I would have collected more or less bets by playing the hand this way.

[Brian]

Hi MG,

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't know if I would have collected more or less bets by playing the hand this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think because the Straight draw got there, you collected about the same number of bets as you would have if you had played the hand in a different way. But if the AQ had missed his straight on the River, you definitely would've lost out on him. That is why I think raising the Turn is best.

-Brian

[EDIT]: I also don't see why you would mind everyone folding the Flop. While you do have a monster draw, it *IS* still a draw. Picking the pot up there would be absolutely fine with me.

[Mike Gallo]

[EDIT]: I also don't see why you would mind everyone folding the Flop. While you do have a monster draw, it *IS* still a draw. Picking the pot up there would be absolutely fine with me.

Because I have greedy tendencies.

[Mike Gallo]

Brian not to pick however he had a gut shot draw

The player with AQ, who has already committed one bet to the pot on the Turn, will almost certainly call another with his open ended straight draw.

The board on the turn looked like this 8 9 10 2.

[Brian]

Hi MG,

You're right. For some reason I was thinking he had the same hand as you, just no Flush draw. I am still fairly confident that he would've called the raise after having already put 1 bet into the pot. And, I still stand by my thinking that raising the Turn is the best play. There are many hands he could have that would call a raise on the Turn, but would fold for even a single bet on the River.

-Brian

[WillMagic]

Um, raise the flop? Your draw is huge, you're on the button, if there's any time to raise it's here. You'll probably get a free card if you want it, so I think not raising here is a major mistake...

Assuming you just call on the flop, I think the turn overcall is marginal. Of course you don't want to shut people out, but with all the draws out there (the king of spades, other jacks, etc...) I think that almost anyone who was going to call one bet would also have called two.

Will

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I really did think about it, however the last few times I raised in a similar spot everyone folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, winning a pot sucks now. Hmmmm, interesting. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace,
JT

[tpir90036]

i like it. i usually jam this flop up, but nothing wrong with mixing it up in the off chance that someone is paying attention.

it doesn't look like you lost any bets to me. in fact you might have actually gained a couple by not raising the flop. once the spade hits on the turn you might have just been check/called all the way down and could have even lost the AQ assuming he wasn't totally horrible.

if you would have raised the turn i don't think you would have lost anyone and probably would have just got check/calls on the river. which works out to be the same unless (again) the AQ is not a total clown and lets it go here before catching his gutshot.

anyway, hindsight is 20/20 but you got 2 more BBs out of the AQ on the river by letting him catch up. i don't think the T9 was going anywhere. nice hand...