Mirage 20-40: A type of hand I don't seem to play well

[Dynasty]

This hand comes from a weekend Mirage 20-40 game. There's been lots of action at both the Bellagio and Mirage for a while now. Games are very good in Las Vegas. This game is definitely loose with a small amount of aggression.

The hand:

I'm UTG with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif and limp in. An EP, MP, and the Cutoff all limp behind me. All three of these players were loose tourists. The Small Blind completes. The Small Blind is a losing Vegas local but he plays aggressively with any hand. The Big Blind checked his option. Six players see the flop for one bet each.

The flop is: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif

Both Blinds checked to me. I checked. EP, MP, and Cutoff all check behind me. Six players see the turn.

The turn is: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

The Aggressive Small Blind comes out betting. Big Blind folds. I give the situation some thought and call. EP and MP fold but the Cutoff calls. Three players see the turn with 6 big bets in the pot.

The river is: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Small Blind bet. I called. Cutoff folded.

[Ed Miller]

If you decide to continue with the hand on the turn, I think you have to raise.

[snakehead]

since you can't know what the action will be behind you, you should muck this hand before the flop. then, when you failed to flop or turn a set or draw, you should fold to a bet. with five opponents, it is very likely someone has a bigger pair, and the pot isn't offering enough to draw to two outs. besides, if you hit a six it might give someone a straight.

[AJo Go All In]

i think calling the turn was probably the worst of your options. it's close between folding and raising i think. SB may 3-bet, and you may have to call down if he is capable of making that play with diamonds, 45o etc. folding is probbaly best, but if you think you have the best hand i don't see how you can not raise. you can't allow JTo in the cutoff to see the river.

[Tyler Durden]

[Diplomat]

Hi Dynasty,

good to see you posting again. I would raise the turn simply because the players behind you are poor..ie. they would happily call one bet with any particular overcard combination, but probably fold to a raise. For some reason they often freak out when someone raises the turn..."ooo, they must really have something," because they rarely raise the turn themselves without the goods. If the players played well, I'd be more inclined to just call, as they probably will fold for a bet anyway, and I want the aggressive small blind to keep betting on the river.

If you raise the turn and get callers behind you, be ready to give up on the river (but obviously not always).

-Diplomat

[James282]

I think that you don't seem to play this type of hand well because it is almost impossible to do so in this position. Position is so important here. I will limp with this UTG all of the time in a game with loose tourists who are nervous to raise preflop if I believe I can typically get the implied odds for a set. You missed your set, time to lay it down. Calling stations like when you play 66 in front of them because they can call 1 bet for their overcards. On the other hand, if you are on the button in this spot, you can bet the flop more easily after your dumb opponents have shown weakness.

This hand perfectly illustrates why people make losers out of small PPs in even the loosest and most passive games, you need to fold this on the turn(hell, you should be happy you got a free card). This hand can be a winner, but not when you call to two probable outs on the turn with 8 kabillion cards that will beat you even if you do have the best hand. If you think the SB is FoS, raise him, and check-fold if you get callers behind you on the river assuming you don't improve.
-James

[David Steele]

since you can't know what the action will be behind you, you should muck this hand before the flop

You can't know but you can guess well in some games and in those you can play any pair.

I agree with the turn fold but I seriously doubt he was trying to draw to the 2 outer, it looks a little suspicious that anyone has him beat.

D.

[El Dukie]

I don't think the preflop limp with a small pair was a problem, given the texture of the game. Likewise, on the flop, once you miss the set, you're presumably in check-and-fold mode, but nobody bet. On the turn, once the SB bets, it's raise or fold. Is the SB the type to CR the flop with a good hand (like 97 or A9), or would he usually bet out? He may have been going for a CR and not had any bettors. Given that there are two flush draws and a couple of str8 draws once the turn card hits, though, he might very well be semi-bluffing into an apparently weak field. I'd probably raise, with the hope of getting heads-up, then I'd check behind him on the river once the 3 paired.

[lil']

I would raise the turn if I was going to play on. With every opponent you drive out, you increase your chances of the river card not helping anyone. Calling seems like a waste of a BB.

[elysium]

hi dynasty
do you see how comin in from that position with the small pocket pair: 1; caused a missed bet on the flop. 2; caused you to become analytical at the table, and tighten everyone up. 3; caused you to miss a raise to get the SB heads-up and force the draws to pay the maximum to draw out on you, or potentially causes you to get trapped between two raisers, but in the very least causes you not to really know what to do. and yes dynasty, on the turn you paused. you became a little analytical then too. talking to the horse. whew.....(i'm whewing like mr. ed)......whew. the CO folded wilburrrrr.

[leon]

Dynasty, if you're going to call the turn and river (assuming a scare doesn't pop up), I raise the turn. The protection your hand receives when you do this far outweighs the loss from sb not leading out anymore. This also can give you options on the river, ie check behind if you want, or get more money in the pot if you river a six. Either way it shouldn't cost you more to get to a showdown.

Leon

[anatta]

Pre-flop is fine. I would limp with 22 or AXs here. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

On the turn, I think the chances are pretty good that he has some type of draw, diamonds or a wheel draw. A smaller pair is possible too. By just calling him down, you put in 2 big bets to win a total of 7. I think you win more than 2 out of 7 times here.

If you were on the button and all folded to you, then calling him down, as opposed to raising, seems the best play. If he has a better hand, he probably doesn't fold it. If he is drawing and misses, he probably bets the river. If he is drawing and hits, you lose the minimum. I think most of the time, the players behind you will fold on the turn when they checked the flop, a harmless card comes on the turn, and there is a bet and a caller. So I think you played it okay.

To confess, I used to have a leak where I played on with small pocket pairs too much, not in a "take one off to catch lucky", but in a "raise to isolate" kind of way. I always think "6" when the flop comes, and when it doesn't, epecially if my next thought is "damn, I never flop a set", I am not always ready to play my best poker. Of course, this is very bad, but at least I am aware of it.

[andyfox]

Nobody plays this "type" of hand well. A small unimproved pair up front with three players behind . . . yecch.

I can't imagine I would have called the turn here. Fold seems the best option, raise second best, though not a close second.

[Gabe]

I find few instances, where I think I can profitably limp early with a small pair, in the usual games I play in. It seems you have found one. On the flop it seems 66 has missed. Theres a chance you have the best hand, but not much you can do to protect it. On the turn, when the SB bets and the BB folds, there are three people left to act. I don’t like calling, but unlike most other posters, I’d be more inclined to raise rather than fold. I’m actually surprised everyone is folding, so maybe I don’t play these types of hands well either.

[mikelow]

Raise the turn. Unlikely you will be reraised. SB could be on diamonds.

Other than that, I like your actions.

[Inthacup]

In order from like to dislike, here's what I'd do.


1. Raise
2. Fold
3. Call


I'm surprised you just called here. If someone behind you has a 7, there's a good chance that raising will make him fold, thus increasing your chances of winning.

If you're in the zone and know you're behind SB, the fold is good.



Cup

[bad beetz]

If I thought I was ahead here I'd raise the turn. People behind you go away and SB may fold and you win.

However, if the SB can 3-bet you with a draw here than calling is better.

[Softrock]

Dynasty:

I have problems with these types of situations as well and that's why I generally don't play hands like 66 in early position. When I do it's usually because the game is loose-passive and I stand a good chance of seeing the flop multi-way for one bet OR when I'm running very good and my opponents are semi-afraid of me.

I haven't read the other posts yet and others may well have said this - seems to me on the turn you either raise or fold and that calling is the least favorable action - you might beat a draw and get a 7 to fold - you have to give yourself a chance to win with just 66. You may well be drawing dead to a 6 (ie. it completes somebody's hand). The fact that you have the 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif makes the call marginally better.

[AJo Go All In]

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
This game is definitely loose with a small amount of aggression.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm UTG with 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif and limp in

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise. If anyone gets sassy behind, reraise and cap if necessary. Bet the flop in the dark if the blinds fold. Also, wear an eye patch at the poker table.

-Zeno

[Dynasty]

I was the only player to call the Small Blind's river bet. he showed A2 for a pair of 2's and my 66 was good.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise the turn simply because the players behind you are poor..ie. they would happily call one bet with any particular overcard combination, but probably fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The turn is obviously where the problem lies.

On the flop, I'm in check and fold mode. I've got no problem letting the hand go with three players left to act behind me.

But, when the action gets checked around on the flop, you've got to change your standard "no set, no bet" approach. Everybody in this game is betting top pair when there is no pre-flop raise. Almost everybody is betting middle pair as well in this spot. I'm sort of wondering on this specific flop whether I should be betting myself. 3rd pair usually doesn't have me rushing to put chips in the pot. But, sometimes. it's good enough.

So, that brings us to the turn. The aggressive player probably would have bet any flopped pair or flush draw. Of course, he could have missed a flop check-raise. Generally, I'm not going to be worried about being up against a pair 9's from anybody or 7's from the Small Blind. A pair of 7's is possible behind me. More importantly, overcards are definitely behind me. I think that's the real reason to raise on the turn.

In this particular hand, It thought the checked through flop meant the three opponents behind me had nothing to call with after the 2 hit on the turn. So, I went the inexpensive route even thought it's probably not the best play.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody plays this "type" of hand well. A small unimproved pair up front with three players behind . . . yecch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody should be able to play this type of hand well- even if it means making a simple fold. You can play well by folding.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
since you can't know what the action will be behind you, you should muck this hand before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need to know what the action will be behind you. You just need to know that playing the hand is +EV. In the weekend Mirage 20-40 games, you can expect multiple limpers behind you and raises a fairly small % of the time. Let's say you'll get an average of 3 limpers behind you and a raise 25% of the time. That's a reasonable estimate. With those #'s, you should assume you'll see the flop about 5-handed (one blind plays too) for 1.25 small bets. I think that's +EV for any decent player.

Have I ever mentioned that if the game isn't good enough to play a pocket pair or Axs UTG then, by definition, the game isn't good enough to play. I thought I mentioned that once...or twice...a week...for several months in a row...ending in a faulty Card Player article by Jan Fisher

Jan Fisher Card Player article (http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=13531)

[James282]

A lot of great insights in this article.

[ QUOTE ]
Playing from early positions is much tougher than playing from late positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very definitive. Seriously, she completely misunderstands the concept of positive expected value. "You will need a large chunk of the flop to continue." Obviously. If you can't fold top pair no kicker you shouldn't play AXs. If you can't fold 77 on a A34 board you should shouldnt play it(from any position).

My question is, why is it always perceived that preflop play is so unpredictable? Sometimes it can be. A lot of times, especially when "tourists" are in town looking to gamble, they don't raise preflop ever. You can safely judge the aggression of the table after about an hour of play(you don't need a very large sample for it to be statistically significant). Thus, you are simply using odds in a slightly less precise manner than when you draw to a flush or a straight. If someone were to write "calling with a four-flush on the turn heads up is wrong because you are going to need a big chunk of the river" they would simply not be providing enough information. In snakehead's game you can't know what the action will be behind you, and I agree that in games where it's 2 or 3 people to the flop for a couple bets that playing these small pairs is almost never profitable unless your opponents play poorly and too aggressively. This article is just so inconsistent with what it says to do(and so obvious where it is consistent) that it can basically be disregarded.
-james

[Rick Nebiolo]

Hi Dynasty,

I agree with your logic that in this type of game limping with small pairs is plus EV. The problem for many of us is that good soft games such as this when they can be found change into tighter, tougher games during a session and we need to gaurd against continuing on auto-pilot and calling.

You wrote: "Have I ever mentioned that if the game isn't good enough to play a pocket pair or Axs UTG then, by definition, the game isn't good enough to play. I thought I mentioned that once...or twice...a week...for several months in a row...ending in a faulty Card Player article by Jan Fisher."

I'll pass for now on the Fisher article but I think your view takes a very Vegas-centric approach. From what I've read and long ago experienced the most common good games in Las Vegas appear to be loose and somewhat passive, especially those found on the weekends. In California loose AND passive games at the 20/40 level are hard to find (although 15/30 loose - passive games are more common). OTOH, super loose, AND very aggressive 20/40 games are another matter. These games are very much worth playing but limping UTG with 66 is suicide as you probably already know. What I'm trying to say is that some of the disagreement in this thread may come from the perspective and experience of the posters i/e., California versus Las Vegas.

As an aside, look how much easier this hand is to play out of the blinds. Now you can be first to bet the turn with 66 and be in very little danger of being raised given your opponents have to fear two pair or a straight.

Regards,

Rick

[Tekari]

Had skalansky ever commented on that cardplayer article? I thought I remembered him saying that in a non-aggresive game you can call with Axs?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Call me conservative but I tend to err on the side of caution here with so many players in the pot. I'd probably fold it on the turn. With fewer players I would like it more, especially if the SB's bet is suspect.

al

[gaylord focker]

Putting it in the dumpster before the flop seems best, followed by putting it in the dumpster on the turn, followed by putting it in the dumpster on the river. Put it in the dumpster.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Unless the game is VERY loose passive, i typically muck small pairs BTF UTG too. However, with Dynasty's description of the game, I can't fault him too much here for playing it.

al

[Mackie]

Raise the turn.

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
A pair of 7's is possible behind me. More importantly, overcards are definitely behind

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call, overcards like KJ are getting 5:1 pot odds on a 7:1 shot. I don't think its that likely a 7 is behind you since you said a 7 would likely bet the flop, and the relatively few 7's players play.

But a 7 is possible, and there are other hands like JT or an Ace with a gutter that you want to fold. I do believe if you were the only one left to act, then calling down is best. Most of the time here, I think the players behind you will fold anyways. I normally do raise here, I just don't think calling down is that bad.

I think folding is clearly wrong since it looks like you only need to win about 1/3 of the time, and 66 looks good here at least half the time on the turn.