what the deuce?? KK and they're gunnin for me.

[Tyler Durden]

Great 2-4 game online.

UTG limps, I'm UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif and raise. I get called by the CO who was posting and the button coldcalls too. Both blinds come along so it's a six way flop.

Flop comes 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Not shabby.

Checked to me and I bet (duh). CO folds, button calls. SB checkraises. BB coldcalls, UTG coldcalls, I just call, button calls to close the action.

Flush gets there on the turn w/ the 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. My plan was to pop it here. SB bets out, BB folds, UTG calls, I raise. Button now 3-bets and the SB folds. UTG coldcalls and I call.

River is an offsuit 9. UTG wakes up and bets. I call with the button left to act.


Thoughts/comments on all of it and esp. the flop/turn play would be great, thanks.

[BigEndian]

Flop: you had a chance at a CR. I vary my play here and will sometimes CR with AK as well (not at 2/4).

Turn: Bad card, I wouldn't raise here and try to get to the river cheaply to see if you can catch runner-runner.

River: I would fold usually unless I had a read on the players.

- Jim

[AviD]

I'd put several on the flush draw (cold callers). SB was probably trying to push them out with the check raise after the flop.

Last thing you want to see if a spade on the turn. Raising IMO is out of the question, I would have check-folded here. Too many in the pot looking for that spade and/or straight draw.

I don't think KK has too much strength with that board, especially with cold calling stations...they liked something on the flop enough to continue.

SB was trying to represent the nut flush on the turn with his check-raise on the flop. He folded when the Button came out of left field to raise him out. UTG probably has a flush as well or flopped the straight and is/was slowplaying.

UTG betting the river is probably an indication of the flush and better than the Button's, doubt he'd bet with the straight on that board and the 3-bet turn. All that cold calling stinks of a nut flush to me.

KKs don't look good at all come the turn...nevermind the river.

[bunky9590]

If I ever check fold the second nut draw with an overpair in Low limit, trade in my entire wardrobe for mini skirts and catholic schoolgirl uniforms. Man, I thought I had moments of being weak tight!!!!

[AviD]

I just think he is beat in this hand...exclusively based on the variance in betting by the players. Just a gut feeling, but I know what you are saying. Second to the nuts, but I think he is already beat by the nuts.

Perhaps a check-call is in order, call me weak-tight in this case...but I think I'd fold...something wreaks and it could be your mini skirt (or mine)! :P

[bunky9590]

I hear what you are saying, but what you need to do is not put yourself up against the nuts every hand. True he may be beat, he may not. I'm not folding here though and will call down unimproved KK as well.

[AviD]

Hehe, I hear ya...but this mini is killin me and I can't ignore that feeling on this hand! :P

Those UTG cold calls and Button cold/raised calls really bother me...and UTG "waking up" on the river jumps out at me. I can't put everyone on the nut flush...but I think UTG's been slowplaying a monster and at the very least on the river...get the heck out.

On the turn, perhaps a call would have left the Button calling rather than raising...but I think not. I think he made his flush.

This hand just smells fishy man...fishy I tell ya. But that could be me, teh weak-tight Catholic schoolgirl mini wearing n00bular fish! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AliasMrJones]

I really don't understand the turn play. Why would you want to "pop it?" I'd be amazed if you weren't behind at this point. Someone appears to have a straight or flush or perhaps there are one of each at this point. You're on a draw so why would you want to put any more money in the pot? I suppose with all the $$$ in the pot you've now got to call the re-raise.

On the river you're unimproved KK is dead IMO. I'd check/fold here.

[James282]

Hi. Three-bet the flop and see if you can bounce the button, and see how much that SB really likes his hand. Make those draws in the BB and UTG pay more as well.

AviD, your "here a flush, there a flush, everywhere a flush flush" thinking has got to go. You say with almost certainly that there are 3 flushes made on the turn, and are positive that 10 of the 14 cards that are live in this hand are spades? You have no reason to believe someone has the nut flush on the turn here. None. You can be concerned about UTG's coldcall more than anything else because this sort of dubious play is very often the ace of trump, but folding for the first bet is simply awful. You still have to call though, because UTG could also have a baby overpair like 88 or 99 that he just doesn't have the heart to fold. The button almost surely has a flush, but he could have any assortment of spades not including the ace. Hell, he could pretty easily have a turned set as well..all of which you have plenty of outs against. UTG bets the river, bizarre. I few reasons that he would do this. I put him squarely on 9x9s. He has 0 reasons on planet earth to cold-call and not raise the turn if he has a slowplayed monster. If he really sucks a lot he could have T8 with a spade and have made a straight. Anyway I probably fold on the river and watch the button drag it home with a flush.
-James

[CrackerZack]

I don't like to slowplay on drawish boards, so I'd 3-bet the flop. I want the button out without a real hand. Given that, I like the turn raise. On the river I think you're in 3rd or 4th place, not good, muck time.

[CrackerZack]

Folding this on the turn is nuts. He has the king of spades. Even if he doesn't, folding could be very wrong depending on action.

[AviD]

Hehe, like I said...I can understand the turn call (not the raise). This hand is quite bizarre in the way it is being played by UTG especially. The betting is all over the place.

It's not a fear of a flush, and you are right...he could land a 4th board spade on the river and make his K high flush...he has some outs there. But making a set I think is moot...he is really pulling for the flush and I'll agree that deserves a turn CALL, not a turn raise (only to be re-raised...although it could be interpretted then as more of a value bet?)

It seems like his turn raise is to represent a made flush and also to bet for value in case it falls. Dangerous play IMO with the betting that has taken place up to the turn.

I just want to see these freakin results already and confirm that I'm a hammerhead that wears a skirt (bucky quit pickin on me bastage!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

I can't take it anymoooooooorrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeee...the suspense is killing me!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Aces McGee]

I think I would have three bet the flop and gone from there.

Obviously, you have to call the turn threebet with the second nut flush draw.

With the pot giving me something like 22:1 (before rake), I'd be tempted to call with my kings (even not closing the action with a turn 3-bettor still to act), but in the heat of the moment, I'd probably fold them - then post here asking if I should have or not.

McGee

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a fear of a flush, and you are right...he could land a 4th board spade on the river and make his K high flush...he has some outs there. But making a set I think is moot...he is really pulling for the flush and I'll agree that deserves a turn CALL, not a turn raise (only to be re-raised...although it could be interpretted then as more of a value bet?)


[/ QUOTE ]

Avi...when the action gets to him on the turn, all that's happened is that he was raised on the flop, there were some callers, and the flop raiser led the turn. Sure, the button 3bet sure looks like a flush, but that happened AFTER Tyler raised.

McGee

[AviD]

Well here's the question in my head...do you think the turn raise was wise?

Given the overpair and potential second best flush draw...do you want to raise and push out the button? Is this a value bet or an isolation bet, or an attempt to win it right there with the flush scare card landing? Or some/all of the above?

I'm now convinced calling is best, wondering if raising is better or worse. The river is a no decision based on no improvement...but between pot odds and outs I agree the turn call is very reasonable but a raise is questionable or well played aggressively?

Good thing I have you great folks here to correct my twisted thinking! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tyler Durden]

Looking back I really hate the way I played this hand. I took a break from poker for a few months but that's not a good excuse. When my game is on point I'm 3-betting the flop and betting the turn for sure. I think I tried this to mix it up or something. A friend of mine who is an expert player once told me about the flatcall/pop the turn when the scare card hits and I decided to employ it, however I think I chose the wrong situation. He used that play on me once but we were heads up, far different.

Amazingly, my hand was good and I dragged the pot of nearly 19 BBs. The guy who led the river had 9c8c, flopped an OESD and rivered a pair of nines. The button (turn 3-bettor) folded, and I still don't believe it.

I agree with Bunky and CrackerZack that folding the turn would be horrible. Also, I think it's important to point out that when playing online, it's tough to put opponents on a real hand because....well, because most of the time they don't have a real hand. I play on Party and I'm sure most of you know that players will call with anything, esp. in a multiway pot. So thinking you're beat and being confident enough to fold at some point isn't really a good idea most of the time.

Though I have to admit, I was praying for the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif to hit the river. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Once I got to the river, there was no card that could have fallen that would cause me to fold.


Oh yea, I posted another hand a little while ago that I'd love some feedback on. Thanks much. It's probably on the second page by now.

[AviD]

Wow is all I can say...all that cold calling with an OESD and clinching a pair of 9s to bet the river.

Send me an invite next time you play with these guys...wtffffffff is all I can say.

I learned alot from this hand though, thanks for all the replies guys! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Let me go lick my wounds now! hehe

[BigEndian]

Once I got to the river, there was no card that could have fallen that would cause me to fold.

This kind of calling really hurts when you move to 5/10. The button folded the best hand by the way.

I stand by the river call being -EV in this scenario. Your hand was good this time, but it's overshadowed by the times it isn't and the times you get tag-teamed by a raised, 3-bet and capped river with you crying each call.

- Jim

[Tyler Durden]

For sure, I wouldn't play this hand in this manner at Party 5/10. I prefer 2/4 b/c of the weaker opponents and smaller swings.

As for the river call, if you haven't played 2/4 on Party I think you'd be amazed at how often your hand is good here.

[ElSapo]

Flush gets there on the turn w/ the 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. My plan was to pop it here. SB bets out, BB folds, UTG calls, I raise. Button now 3-bets and the SB folds. UTG coldcalls and I call.

Hey Tyler... Interesting hand.

I like the turn raise in theory, but then along comes the spade and, well, couldn't you have gotten a less threatening card for the turn?

But the thing is, I don't like just calling the turn either. Kind of a tough situation.

I can't take Avid's stance on this and put each oppponent, and the guys at the 3/6 game as well, on a flush -- but with all those callers on the flop there is a chance someone hit. So raising seems counterintuitive.

I think they key here is the flop, and I would have three-bet it. On a less drawish board, I think your play would work well, to wait until the turn to raise. But I don't like the idea of raising into someone's flush, only to get three-bet and have to call. I'd probably also wait for the turn if there were fewer players in the hand, but that may just be me.

I don't much like the river call. UTG could have something silly like A9s, or 89s, but he could also have a set of 9s or perhaps one of the many flushes out there.

Now, tell me you beat UTG's A9 and JJ. Yeah?

[ElSapo]

Good christ I must be a genius.

Edit -- Well, except for advocating a fold.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
I think they key here is the flop, and I would have three-bet it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree. Had I done that the hand will be much easier to play b/c my opponents know I mean business, raising it back when most of them have position on me.