Bio-feedback & tilt

[JayKon]

Once you know how to play, winning in low-limit games is usually fairly easy - except when you get a bad run of cards. Then, what seems to happen to many (myself included) is that not only does KJo && 77 look better than they really are, but you start to miss, or worse misinterpret what you see happening in the game and perhaps chase (without the odds). Thus turning a small to medium loss into a much larger loss.

To this end, I got to thinking about Bio-feedback and the calm, focused mental state that is taught by it. After all, beyond the basics (HEFAP) poker is a mental game ... isn't it?

To this end, I've ordered a computer game that doesn't use a mouse, or keyboard for input, it uses Bio-feedback sensors (in this case, kinda like rings). The marketing material talks about inner calm and focused mental state.

It seemed like it was worth the money to try. However, before I receive it and fire it up, I thought I would run it by the group to see what you think.

Thanks,
Jay

[Al Schoonmaker]

Jay,
Bio-feedback has had great success in a wide variety of situations, but I have no knowledge of the device you are discussing.
If it enables you to become more aware of the signs that your are over-reacting to poker, it COULD be worth the investment. The best way to deal with tilt is to see that you're approaching it so you can take corrective action in advance. Once you're on tilt, correction is much harder.
I'd appreciate your sending me a PM with more information after you have tried it. I am planning a series of articles on tilt.
Regards,
Al

[JayKon]

[ QUOTE ]
If it enables you to become more aware of the signs that your are over-reacting to poker, it COULD be worth the investment.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking. Use Bio-feedback to teach myself to recognize when my mental state was starting to shift away from the calm-attentive state that translates to knowing when your likely able to steal a pot, when you're almost certain to get called and eliminate most (if not all) of the effects from the frustration and boredom that poker can entail.

I am still wondering if anyone out there has used Bio-feedback and what their experience has been. The small amount of research I've done suggests that people can learn to "fool" the feedback sensors into registering a mental state that isn't so. Seems like a pitfall, though one probably easy to avoid.

Jay

[chesspain]

Jay,

As many 2+2ers know, I am a clinical psychologist. In addition, I use biofeedback in my practice, mostly to help patients to manage either anxiety or chronic pain. The modalities I use include:

1) Surface EMG, which measures muscle tension,
2) Thermal, which measures blood flow constriction/relaxation,
3) Skin conductance, which measures sweat gland activity

Most cheap, portable "biofeedback" devices measure either hand temperature or skin conductance. Indeed, remember the mood rings and stress management, color changing cards from the 1980s?

I'ld be leary of buying any portable, biofeedback device for use with poker because:

A) The technology itself will likely be cheap and unreliable.
B) The equipment only measures your physical responses. Although this may help you to learn how to better control your own "fight or flight" arousal responses which can occur during states of anxiety or rage, this will not do much, by itself, to help you to control tilt, which is more of a cognitive/behavioral reaction, usually occuring in response to internal or external events such as river suckouts by others, inebriation, boredom, anger, etc.

Consequently, I think that your money will be much better spent on books like The Tao of Poker, which will help you to better confront the attitudinal changes under moments of stress or bordedom which can lead to tilt.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If you play online, and are as susceptible to tilt as I am, your computer might not be able to handle it all and blow up. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

al

[JayKon]

Very interesting information, both stated and implied. Thank you. In particular, I was suspicious of the "magic rings" in terms of quality. Also, I didn't know what was measured. Still, if you're using it in a practice, then there must be some utility. I will proceed with caution.

However, you misunderstand one important point. The Biofeedback device connects to my home computer and runs a computer game designed to teach you how to control (right word?) yourself. It is, to the best of my knowledge not portable.

I'll PM you, or anyone else, the URL of the site promoting this game, but won't post it. Rules, are rules.

[JayKon]

Oh, very funny Al.

Although, you may have a point. I wonder if I could rig the biofeedback sensor to move the mouse pointer. If my mental state isn't correct for playing a hand, it could just go click on fold and then exit the game. Or better yet, just play the hand for me to show me what I should be doing.

This has posibilities!

[MicroBob]

i'm not sure this would register a whole lot for me while playing online.
my times of least optimal play where i perhaps go on something bordering-tilt tend to happen near the end of longer sessions when i am getting pretty darn tired.
i dont really think i am growing in anger or frustration too much....i am just playing a few more hands than i should be playing. but im in such a hypnotic-i-really-should-be-going-to-bed type of state that it probably wouldnt register a whole lot.

now i know to either shut it down when i am getting that tired....or at least to recognize the situation and play more ABC-ish poker in general if i decide to grind-on....i am shutting it down more often than not though.

however, i also don't really understand the whole mentality of wanting to throw one's computer out the window when taking a bad-beat....this is all part of the game in my mind and i don't really get upset if i lose a big pot. if you are of the type to get even a little bit hot-headed after a loss and maybe you're secretly hoping you can get back at that guy at some point then perhaps you will notice some bio-change.
im just happy a guy is at my table with that much money who is playing that badly.

it should be noted than i am not a total robot....when playing chess online i have been known to throw my mouse across the room and shout expletives at my monitor....but for some reason i tend not to do this at all in poker. maybe it's because i am usually winning at poker and i am usually losing at chess. PLUS, when i lose at poker it is usually the fault of some idiot hitting a runner-runner...when i lose at chess i typically have only my own incompetency to blame.
if you put one of those things on me during an internet chess tourney i might fry the system.

the tilt-results after a loss from the little system could be interesting.

[JayKon]

Perhaps I mis-titled this thread and placed too much emphasis on the tilt portion, as just about everyone has missed one of my primary objectives.

Maintaining a clear head so that I can read and understand the information about players and what they are doing. This helps in many ways. First and foremost, figuring out when its time to fold. Easily spotting when someone else has gone on tilt, seeing when no one wants a pot and isn't playing beyond their own cards, being clear on the difference between chasing and calling someone down - to name just a few.

This is something which comes easily to me most of the time. However, I have noticed that whenever I do go on tilt, I have first lost my ability to see these things clearly as well as lost the nerve to exploit them.

Enter the Bio-feedback game. With it, you (hopefully) learn to identify positive mental states and how to move yourself from a neutral, or negative mental state back to the positive one. Then, in a poker game, well away from the Bio-feedback hardware, when the turkeys get you down, you have something you have learned to draw upon.

Then, if the theory holds, you have prevented tilt, before tilt actually occurred.

Though I would accept an extended argument that not "seeing" information at the table caused you to play in a manner less that what you know to be correct and is therefore tile. Definitions, definitions.

Jay

PS. Actually, I posted this here in an effort to clarify my thoughts and make sure they were rooted in reality. This has been achieved, they are and it probably is.

[CrisBrown]

Hi JayKon,

I'd stayed out of this thread for awhile to see what the psychologists have to say. But I'll give it a try....

I took biofeedback training at a headache clinic, for migraines. I learned to slow my pulse and lower my blood pressure to help relieve migraine pain. I also trained as an actress, and a lot of that training had to do with being physically self-aware: knowing when various muscle groups were storing tension, so you could release it and let your body be a relaxed instrument on stage.

So that's my background: not professional, but experiential.

That having been said, I think physical self-awareness can be very helpful in avoiding tilt situations, and also in, for lack of a better phrase, "getting in the zone."

Your body responds to stress by releasing adrenaline and other hormones. Your pulse quickens, blood flow is shifted from the extremities to the large muscle groups, your vision sharpens, and your concentration narrows.

Up to a point ... that's a good thing! You filter out the many distractions, focus on the problem at hand, and have additional energy to deal with it. When you can achieve that state and still be relaxed and "open" ... you can fall into that magical place we call "the zone" ... where you're at your physical and mental peak.

But if that response runs too far, you go on tilt. Your focus narrows too much. You see only your own cards, or the hand you're trying to make, and not the ways that hand could be dead. You react emotionally, without the careful evaluation of consequences which is essential to good poker.

If your biofeedback software can help you to find that relaxed concentration ... that physical and mental "zone" ... then yes, I think it's worthwhile. If it can help you be aware of when you've moved beyond relaxed concentration into fear and panic, then yes, it's worthwhile.

But you don't need software to do these things. You can do them with simple exercises that can be learned at any stress management seminar. Biofeedback is simply being physically self-aware ... and I think it's an important skill no matter what your walk of life.

Cris