2 Ace-little NLHE hands, help

[Acesover8s]

Both these hands took place on party .50-1.00 games. I have $60ish in both and am covered by the relevant opponent in each.

#1) I limp behind limpers with As7s. Another limper and CO min-raises. Everybody comes in. Pot is $14.

Flop comes A78 with two clubs. I check, planning to check raise the field all in. Except it gets checked around. Turn is an offsuit Ten. EP bets minimum. I raise pot, original raiser calls, EP folds.

River is an 8 of clubs. Counterfeiting my 2nd pair, and putting the flush up there. I check and original raiser bets enough to put me all in. Wha happened?


Hand #2: Several players limp and I complete the SB with As5s. Flop comes Ah7s8s. I bet the pot and get called in two places.

Turn is an offsuit Q. I bet $12, next player min raises, folded to me and I call.

River is another 8, no spade. I check, he bets all in. Wha happened?


A hint about the results. I folded one hand and called the other. I should have done exactly the reverse. Can you tell which is which? If so, what am I missing?

[AeonBlues]

Ok, in hand #1, you should come out over betting the pot. Your against a lot of players, the pot is pretty big, and there is very likely str8 and or flush draws against you, and someone could have an 8 in their hand, or an A that will atleast tie you if the 8 pairs. Top and bottom pair is not a tricky hand to play, Bet the fricking pot atlease, and hope you win it right there. Save the slow plays for hands that are very unlikely to get outdrawn, A high flushes and full houses. Even with trips, it can be a very expensive mistake letting someone catch a turn card that improves them to a str8 or flush draw. You're just risking too much by checking this flop.

On hand 2, I might come out betting, but checking and calling is my normal procedure. There's a big diferance between AA K or Q with a 4 flush and AA 5 with a 4 flush.

Apariently 1 of your hands was the best on the river, but I would fold them both on the river, most of the time with this kind of action you are beat.

AeonBlues

[dogsballs]

I'da folded both in those spots.

What about reraising the turn all-in on the second hand?

[Zag]

Hand 1, it depends on what the CO means on a min raise preflop. If he does this with big pairs only, you can put him on KK or QQ and call him down. Of course, he checked behind on the flop, so you can't really put him on an ace and better kicker, though he might play AA this way. (He'd be wrong, with the flush and straight draws out there, but he still might do it.)

Oh, I know. He has TT and beat you on the turn. Or he has another big pair and he thinks it is good because the flop checked around. Or he is bluffing. I think this should be called down some significant percentage of the time, maybe 30%.

By the way, I disagree with those who said that you absolutely should have bet out on the flop. Your plan to check-raise the flop was a good one, because your bet out would not have been the right amount, given your stack sizes. If you were reasonably sure that the CO would bet out, then you made the right play. Sometimes, you can be reasonably sure and still stumble into the 10% where you were wrong.

Hand 2

I don't really know what happened here, but I can say confidantly that, if you called on the end, you made a big mistake. The mistake wasn't calling, per se, but failing to rereaise all in on the turn. If you folded the river, then I don't have any problem with your play, but, on the turn, you should have planned whether or not you were going to call the river if a spade did not come -- if the answer is yes, then raise all in.

The one qualifier to this is the 8 that came on the river, coupled with the Q already on the board. These combine to be kicker protection against AJ, AT, A9, A7, and A6, all of which were beating you until the 8 fell.

From your hint, I suspect that this is the one that you folded and shouldn't have. I think that I would have folded the river, if I got there in your position, but I would have moved all in on the turn some large percentage of the time, maybe 40% for an unknown player. (This would range from 100% to 0%, for players I know well.)

[Acesover8s]

Thanks for the help, as always, guys.

[ QUOTE ]
#1) I limp behind limpers with As7s. Another limper and CO min-raises. Everybody comes in. Pot is $14.

Flop comes A78 with two clubs. I check, planning to check raise the field all in. Except it gets checked around. Turn is an offsuit Ten. EP bets minimum. I raise pot, original raiser calls, EP folds.

River is an 8 of clubs. Counterfeiting my 2nd pair, and putting the flush up there. I check and original raiser bets enough to put me all in. Wha happened?


[/ QUOTE ]

I figured he was either slowplaying a monster here or I have gone from a dominating to dominated position. So I let it go, which he proceeded to show KJo for no pair.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2: Several players limp and I complete the SB with As5s. Flop comes Ah7s8s. I bet the pot and get called in two places.

Turn is an offsuit Q. I bet $12, next player min raises, folded to me and I call.

River is another 8, no spade. I check, he bets all in. Wha happened?


[/ QUOTE ]

I debated a long time, and like one poster said the river 8 may have saved me as it clears up my kicker problems. So, I talked myself into calling for a split. He showed A8, which was a bit insulting.

Zag and Dogsballs both mentioned raising all in on the turn here. I had considered it, but I knew I was behind, and figured I would only call the river if I flushed or hit my kicker (which would have been bad). Obviously, I talked myself into an alternate strategy at the time, but do you think this is bad thinking?

[tewall]

I agree with Zag about checking the flop. That's not a bad play, depending on your read and the stack sizes. If you can c/r all-in with your raise being a natural sized bet, that's a good situation. On the second hand it's not bad either, as you're at least even money against just about any hand other than a set. And the second hand you don't mind if it gets checked around.

Betting out has its merits too. I think arguments can be both ways, and the right strategy is to vary your play.