Top pair vs PF raiser

[Griffin]

Here is a situation that I'm not sure how to handle, but it comes up often enough that I need some advice. I'll give a specific hand I played as an example, but the general issue is how do you handle a preflop raiser when you act before him and you flop top pair on a uncoordinated board; more specifically, when it is unlikely that the flop hit him?

Example...

Table is 2/4 loose/passive with a couple of good players.

I'm in MP with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif
EP1 limps, EP2 limps, I limp, button, who is one of the good players, raises. I and the two other limpers call his raise.

Flop T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif

Checked to me, I bet, button raises, EP1 folds, EP2 cold-calls, I call.
Should I bet out? Check-raise? Should I call a raise, fold, or re-raise?

Turn 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

Check to me, I bet, button raises, EP2 folds, I call.
In this case, I didn't want to give the button credit for a higher PP as he could easily have raised with AK, AQ, KQ, etc. But if I believe that, shouldn't I be 3-bettting here?

River J/images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, button bets, I call. I'll give results in another post.

I usually go into check/call mode after being raised on the flop, but I've been shown a higher PP often enough that I have started wondering whether I shouldn't be folding on the flop or turn. What I worry about with that choice is that I'm losing pots to anyone who plays overcards like AK, AQ, KQ aggressively. While it is possible that the button had AA-TT, other hands, which I beat, are also possible.

When do you give the PF raiser credit for a higher PP? Which has the higher +EV in the long run, folding (at what point?) or calling it down?

Obviously, I'm clueless about how to handle this, so thanks for the advice!

[Griffin]

Button had A/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif ...MHIG, but I don't feel good about my play at all. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Brian]

Hi Griffin,

I am afraid that there is no easy answer that will apply to every situation that comes up. In fact, I can't think of one that applies to even half of the situations that come up. It all depends on what you think of the pre-Flop raiser, what you think he thinks of you, what exactly the board is, how many other players are in the pot, etc etc etc. The only way to learn how to apply these concepts is to post a lot of hands and get used to dealing with it, because it certainly comes up often.

In this particular situation, going for a check-raise on the Flop would be too dangerous because your hand is very vulnerable to overcards and the Button may check it through. Once the Button raises you, you have to ask yourself, is this the type of player who would raise his overcards into a bettor with 2 players still left to act? If the answer is no, then just call his raise, and check-fold the Turn. If the answer is yes, go ahead and pop him back and see what he does. But most typical players will not.

In this particular situation, even if he is the type who would raise his overcards, you still have the EP player to worry about, who just called 2 bets cold on the Flop. You don't have a very good kicker and EP2 could have the infamous JT, or any other Ten with a better kicker. Assuming EP2 isn't complete garbage, on this relatively drawless board, I would call the raise and hope to spike a 9 on the Turn. A Ten may be good as well.

On the Turn, you are almost certainly beat, but you are getting 10:1 to call and hit a 5 outer. I would check and fold the River.

-Brian

[spamuell]

I probably would have folded the turn here, which worries me a little.

Maybe you should have 3-bet the flop, it seems unlikely he would have raised with something like AT or KT, so if he caps then you can check-fold the turn. If he calls, then you should lead the turn, and assuming he isn't maniaical, fold to a raise.

[BigEndian]

PF: fold.

Moving past that...

Flop: 3-bet for three reasons: 1) to charge the hell out of people calling with small pairs in the hole, or low/mid board pair 2) to find out where you're at with the PF raisor and 3) you will probably get top pair with a better kicker to fold if they're passively playing along.

Turn: OK. Sometimes I'll let the player who finished the action the previous round start it up here and sometimes I'll CR. Change up your play up here.

River: Fine since he raised the turn. Another option is to fold the turn or river sometimes.

Your opponent over-played his AK a bit and gets a note next to his name. He should check through on the river most times and usually only call the flop and fold the turn unimproved if he isn't getting odds.

We're all guilty of over-playing AK now and then (I'm guilty for sure).

- Jim

[Brian]

Hi BigEndian,

I think that limping after 2 limpers with T9s is an absolutely fine play.

-Brian

[LetsRock]

Don't be in the habit of playing T9s in this position and now you know why.

But....
If I somehow got into this position, I'd bet the flop and probably call (depending greatly on what I know about the raiser) and see what the turn/river brings. If the raiser is known to PFR with AK, AQ, AJ, AT? (hope not) and plays it the same post-flop as AA, KK, I'll tend to keep him honest unless the board looks to have helped that kind of hand. But you need to remember that you're beat by AA, KK, QQ, JJ without anymore help and you really have only 5 outs to improve you hand.

One way to find out how serious he is, is to either 3 bet him on the flop (the cheapest way) or bet into him on the turn. If he reraises here (and you haven't improved) it might be time to believe him (again, you have to know your opponent - I often play AK post-flop just like it was AA). If he just calls, do it again on the river.

The trick here is don't get in this spot to begin with! Fold PF!

[BigEndian]

I think he changed it on me or I read it wrong. I thought it was T/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Even still though, in this position, I fold. CO or Button, I will limp if the odds are right.

- Jim

[Brian]

Hi LetsRock,

If you are routinely folding T9s in MP after 2 limpers in a loose/passive game, you are playing way too tight.

-Brian

[LetsRock]

Well, I don't see very many loose passive games, so maybe I'm too conditioned to the maniacs that raise any 2 cards. As ususal, my answers are never "always" nor always "never". As a general rule I stay away from T9s unless I'm in LP.

[ElSapo]

Maybe it's just me, but it's the turn decision I find most interesting...

The button, who we're calling a good player, raised PF, raise the flop bet and is now raising the turn bet. Is no one tempted to give credit here and lay it down?

[Nottom]

Even if you do give him credit for an overpair here, you have 5 outs to improve and have the odds to do so.

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he changed it on me or I read it wrong. I thought it was T/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I didn't change it. I'm not that tricky! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Even still though, in this position, I fold. CO or Button, I will limp if the odds are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

The table was loose-passive, with very little preflop raising. Based on past hands, I expected to have at least four if not five others in the pot with me. Had the button just limped, the blinds would have completed/checked and I would feel OK about my T9s.

Basically, with the right table conditions I'll play T9s from MP, but I caught a bad situation this time. If you feel like that's a big leak in my game, let me have it so that I can improve. T9o is a fold for me from almost any position.

[devinthedude]

If you always fold T9s in a loose passive game in MP after limpers, you are playing WAY too tight.

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you always fold T9s in a loose passive game in MP after limpers, you are playing WAY too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean T9o? Because as I said T9s in MP is table-dependent for me. In a loose-passive table I'll play T9s frequently from MP or later, but not every time.

T9o is a fold for me from every position except the blinds w/o a raise. Now that may be too tight... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Griffin]

[ QUOTE ]
The button, who we're calling a good player...

[/ QUOTE ]

By "good player" I mean that he (1) was properly selective in the hands he played, (2) raised his good hands pre-flop, and (3) played aggressively post-flop.

It's that number 3 that made me reluctant to let go here. I did read him as the type of player to raise his overcard draw. What frustrates me is that I didn't charge him more for it. At a minimum I think I should have 3-bet the flop. The reason I didn't is because I felt like he would cap it whether he had the goods or not, so I didn't think I would get any good information from the 3 bet.

Now, whether his action represents a "good play" of AK on that board, I don't know. It is certainly much more aggressive than I would play it. If I have the pot odds to chase my overcard outs, I'll call it to the river and then fold if unimproved. And that's only if I think TP will take the pot. I'm probably playing that wrong too. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[AviD]

I've been playing alot less hands lately, and as soon as I saw MP and T9s...I thought muck. Hands like this tend to get you into more trouble than its worth in playing it IMO. Alot out there that can beat you, especially in loose passive games with alot of calling stations.

I like easy decisions and laying down T9s is alot easier than playing a pair of Ts with a weak kicker and a small improvement percentage.

Although I think the PF Raiser played AKs aggressively...I think he was also committed to the hand and wanted to force you out. An A or K falls, and he knows he has it won. Perhaps he had a read on you and was thinking how you might act. If he backed down, he was giving up a possibly won pot...possibly (in the mind of an aggressive player). He also has alot more outs than you do, and probably feels between the nut flush draw and top pair falling...it's worth the aggression.

Just my .02