Party 2/4 - Flopped flush, opponent call-reraised paired turn...

[Homer]

The game is fairly loose with average aggression. I don't have any individual reads because, frankly, I'm playing on auto-pilot while reading ESPN.

Two MP limpers to me in the CO, I limp with 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, SB completes, BB raises and all call. Four to the flop for two bets each.

Flop - 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me, I bet, BB and MP call.

Turn - K /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets, MP calls, I raise, BB calls, MP three-bets, I think and call, BB calls.

River - 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

MP bets, I call, BB calls.

-- Homer

[Nottom]

Seems reasonable to me.

I'm sure some here will say something about the preflop limp and it might be a bit loose from the CO with only 2 limpers, but I think its probably OK.

[Homer]

I'm sure some here will say something about the preflop limp and it might be a bit loose from the CO with only 2 limpers, but I think its probably OK.

Yeah, I figure that's bound to be mentioned, thought what I'm really interested in is who would cap the turn and who would call.

MP's call-three-bet on the turn smelled like a slowplayed flush (of which almost all combos beat me) or set (against which I'm now drawing dead thanks to the paired board), so I decided to just call it down. If I thought I could get BB (the PFR) to lay down any diamond bigger than mine for two more bets, I probably would have capped, but I didn't see that happening.

-- Homer

[Nottom]

I figure the same deal. He either has a bigger flush, or more likely he has a boat with something goofy like K4. If you are lucky he is just pumping a hand like KxBig /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Neither is good for you but you really can't fold.

[MaxPower]

I'm OK with the pre-flop limp, that's what late position is for.

On the turn, I would play it the same as you. The best you can hope for is that the 3-bettor has a King.

Were you reading ESPN online or do you get the magazine? I get the magazine but have never met anyone else who does.

[Homer]

Were you reading ESPN online or do you get the magazine? I get the magazine but have never met anyone else who does.

I was reading online, though I actually do have a subscription to the magazine that I got for free with some points from my credit card or something. However, I don't think I've ever read it. I'm lazy and don't like to read much, so I usually get my fill of sports news by watching the same Sportscenter 8 times in a row...

-- Homer

[JTG51]

I get ESPN the magazine also, but I don't really like it. They try a little too hard to be cutting edge and cool, and it doesn't always come off well. I'll take SI anyday, content always beats style.

[JTG51]

I think you played it fine. It looks a lot like MP was slowplaying, and the only flushes you beat are 75, 72 and 52. While all are favorite limping hands for Party players, there are obviously a lot more that beat you.

BB's play is a little strange, I'm more curious about what he had than what MP had. I can't think of any hand for him that would even be close to reasonably played.

[ajizzle]

Ahh, the beauty of playing poker for a living. I too have had days where I've watched the same Sportscenter 8 times in a row. I however prefer the same 7 episodes of WSOP that ESPN 2 plays non stop. Am I the only one that wants to kill myself whenever Norm Chad speaks? They really need to start showing some other years, or maybe just replay the clip of Phil Hellmuth getting his head shaved. Maybe the barber slipped during the haircut, and that's the reason his book doesn't make an ounce of sense. But then again, this post is making absolutely no sense, so go figure.

Ajizzle

[Bob T.]

Seems reasonable to me.


Me too.

I'm sure some here will say something about the preflop limp and it might be a bit loose from the CO with only 2 limpers,

I like the preflop limp. I want to play this hand in the cutoff after two limpers, and I think it is clear, that you don't want to be raising it preflop.

[tj00]

I think we should call the LP limp with suited gappers after 2 limpers the "clarkmeister". Whenever the merits of the "clarkmeister" is questioned a link to the orginal thread is posted. Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=382631& Forum=All_Forums&Words=12&Match=Username&Searchpag e=6&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=381932&Search=true# Post382631)

[Gahnia radula]

I get the magazine but have never met anyone else who does.

Your the SAME person...lol

[Magikist]

I wouldn't be surprised if Homer tells us that he had the third best hand here.

BB's play isn't so unreasonable if he too flopped a flush.

With the BB leading into the flop bettor and then facing a raise, MP is showing a lot of strength with the surprise 3-bet. Unless he is LAG, you've got to think your behind and make a crying call, hoping he has AdKx.

[Aces McGee]

The time has come for me to ask a question that has been burning through my soul for many, many months.

Most of the posters on here whose comments I respect have, at one time or another, responded to a poster telling them that they are playing too many hands preflop, and that one's flop percentage should be in the low 20s.

And yet, at one time or another, I've seen posts from almost all of those same people agreeing with a limp like 86s in the CO after two limpers.

So here's my question: what hands are you guys NOT playing to keep your flop percentages low, if you're playing hands like this one?

I'm certainly not attacking Homer (for playing this hand) or nottom (for saying he agrees with it). I've just noticed this sort of thing a lot recently, and I can't figure it out. I know that you can play more hands in late position, and I know that a better player can play more hands against weak competition because he can outplay them postflop. But is there something I'm missing?

McGee

[Nottom]

The trick is to know when you can play hands and when you can't. Most people get into trouble by playing too many hands up front or after raises as this is where the bulk of the hands that most people need to avoid come from.

[Magikist]

what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander...

By the very nature of the competition of the game, poker players think they are champions. Psychologically, you HAVE to believe you are a champion. Generally speaking, if you didn't think you were better than your opponents, you wouldn't play.

Thus, when dispensing advice I've noticed posters generally take the competitive high ground. This is especially true for the subject of how many flops one should see, which is supposed to be an issue for the novice player. You, the novice, should play less than 20% because you are weak. I, the expert advisor, can play more. Obviously, since I'm the one giving the advice. Do like I say, and no like I do. Etc., etc...

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have any individual reads because, frankly, I'm playing on auto-pilot while reading ESPN.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, I like the honesty.

Once the board paired I like the call down against unknown players. Actually now that I think about it, since you could be behind to either a full house or a bigger flush, I like the call down against anyone except a total maniac.

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm lazy and don't like to read much

[/ QUOTE ]

How does one become carpal/tunnel if you don't like to read? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[rkiray]

I see 21% of flops (volutarily put money in 17%). I'd play this hand after 3 limpers in mp and 2 limpers in lp. Since I don't play 80% of the hands, the list is rather long. I play fairly closely to HPFAP's advice though.

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
You, the novice, should play less than 20% because you are weak. I, the expert advisor, can play more. Obviously, since I'm the one giving the advice. Do like I say, and no like I do. Etc., etc...



[/ QUOTE ]

I almost never do this. I almost always advise people to play just like I do. The only exceptions are very new posters who say they are losing (this is fairly rare on these boards) or sometimes in the microlimits where people say they are playing in very loose, passive games. In the second case I advise them to play more hands than I do (especially medium pairs and suited connectors in ep and mp).

[jonahmavesin]

very new posters who say they are losing (this is fairly rare on these boards)

rkiray, I have a theory on this. I think this board is self-selecting for those who win early. I am one example.

Basically, TV or some other element of the cultural phenomenon that is poker gets somebody hooked enough to try online, or at least go on a weekend bender B&M. Those that lose, quit. Those that break even go back into the general pool and may try again at a future date. But based sheerly on variance, some will have huge upswings. THOSE players (myself included, after rocketing up $500 on 2/4 in a matter of a few evenings) suddenly get stars in their eyes and think, hey, I'm good enough to really do this. They buy Sklansky, look at the back cover, and Voila, another 2+2er is born.

What's interesting is, only a fraction then have the discipline to get good and stick with it when the inevitable downturn hits. Hence the relatively high incidence of posters with 20-30 posts under their belts writing "Party is fixed" or "There's a cashout curse" or "All you AA raisers are stupid they just get cracked by some suck-out this game blows because I'm a winning player and now I'm losing" or some such nonsense.

Just a little sociological perspective on the demographics of the newbie population here. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh, and I used to limp 75s in LP, but after reading this thread, I'm going to stop unless it's family style. One more Lee Jones pre-flop leak plugged. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Bob T.]

Clarkmeister is the one that got me to believe in the merits of limping with this hand and situation.

[Bob T.]

Nice observation Aces.

You can play these marginal hands, if you are in late position, it will be a multiway pot, and you think you can get into the pot for one bet. If all of those conditions aren't met, then you are not going to play in a marginal situation. So you don't consider these hands, and other hands much stronger than these, in EP, or if you are facing two bets to play.

So the reason people are able to keep there flop percentages low, is that they don't play unless they have to in early position, abd they don't play often, if the pot is raised in front of them.

[Homer]

what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander...

By the very nature of the competition of the game, poker players think they are champions. Psychologically, you HAVE to believe you are a champion. Generally speaking, if you didn't think you were better than your opponents, you wouldn't play.

Thus, when dispensing advice I've noticed posters generally take the competitive high ground. This is especially true for the subject of how many flops one should see, which is supposed to be an issue for the novice player. You, the novice, should play less than 20% because you are weak. I, the expert advisor, can play more. Obviously, since I'm the one giving the advice. Do like I say, and no like I do. Etc., etc...

Come on, who do you think does this? First of all, I see 23% of flops in my 2/4 game, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that I (or anyone else) am recommending that others play differently than me. Furthermore, I've never recommended that a player play X% of their hands. That is the wrong way to think about poker. You should play each hand as it comes, and let the long-term percentages fall where they may.

-- Homer

[hockey1]

Does anyone consider folding to the turn 3-bet if this is even a slightly smaller pot? On the turn it looks like one opponent has at least set, the other at least a solid flush draw. If that's right that's 18 outs that have you beat for sure. Plus there's a possibility that one or the other already has a made his boat or flush and you're already done. Plus there's the possibility that you'll face a cap on the turn and multiple bets on the river to see the end of the hand that you've already lost.

Too weak?