5-10 hand from empire, raised on the river!!!! D'oh!

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Pretty good game. 10% of pots are family pots, full game. Good for a 5-10 I should say, not like the 50c-1.00 games!

Note: the upcards of folded players and suits are really not very important on this hand, so folded player cards aren't listed. Ante is 50c.

I have (Kc Ks) Ac.

4d brings it in for $2.
8h calls.
9h completes to $5.
I am next and reraise to $10.
All fold except the 9h raiser.

4th street brings me the 2s and him the Th. I bet and he calls.

5th street brings me the 8c and him the Ts. I bet and he calls.

6th street brings me the Qd and him the 7s. I bet and he calls.

7th street:

Me: (Kc Ks) Ac 2s Ts Qd (7d)
Him: (X X) 9h Th 8c 7s (X)

I bet, he raises me. I know I am beat but make the crying call.

Comments? I am thinking check-call the river was the right move, not sure why I bet but I think it was a mistake. A better hand would certainly not fold, tho a worse hand MIGHT call. Inducing a bluff would have been better.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

to my stupefication, he had pocket 55 and nothing else, my hand was good.

al

[sam h]

Al,

He's got a four straight showing on sixth and might have two pair as well. I would check call there and definitely check on the river. I can't see anybody in those party games folding two pair on seventh and, as you've seen in this hand, you can't safely fold to a raise.

[Andy B]

Nice hit. I still would have checked the river. A better hand won't fold, and a worse hand won't call, most of the time.

[Diplomat]

What Andy said.

I really like checking 7th. I have no idea what he would call you with, and it prevents problems like the one you faced. Much easier to call a bet here than call a raise.

-Diplomat

[7stud]

I think your play was fine until sixth street. On sixth street, you should have checked and folded if your opponent bet. The time to give up with a big pair is when something threatening like a 4 flush or 4 straight appears on your opponent's board. The possibility he already has the straight plus the possibility he will make the straight make it a check/fold situation.

On 7th street, you probably have negative expectation on your bet: you will usually get called only if you're beaten.
[ QUOTE ]
I am thinking check-call the river was the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

The argument against that goes something like this: if you are willing to call a bet, it's better to make the bet yourself. That way you can win two ways: 1)your opponent folds, or 2) your opponent calls and you have a higher hand. On the other hand, if you check and call, you can only win one way: when you have the better hand. I think checking and folding was the way to play 7th street.

[CJC]

This hand was played so poorly by both opponents I don't even know where to begin........

He never should have raised 3rd, but lets just say he did it for a variance play which is cool by me. But by 5th street he should of been gone.

Ok.. to the poster..
Why are you betting on 6th street? What are going to do if raised? That is a check-call against some opponents, and a check-fold against others.

River? A bet is only profitable in two( well normally ) instances here. 1) against an opponent who is capable of laying down 2 pair 2) against an opponent who will almost always call with ONE pair. So this bet IMHO was negative expectaion all along.

Your oponents river raise under ideal circumstances was brilliant. Your call of the raise,under 'normal' circumstances was horrible,BUT....neccessary given the pot odds and game.. ( didn't I mentioon in someone elses post recently you will see strange sh*t in the low limit Party games ) Another reason, NOT to bet the river in this case.

You got very lucky here that you didn't lose $30(or $40) more than you should have.

Later
CJ

[DanZ]

I have not read the other responses.

there is no reason to bet 6th or 7th. When someone shows a live 4 straight, and you have 1 pair and nothing threatening on baord, he will usually bet if you check anyway. If he doesn't it's not a big deal.

If you bet and get raised, you have a tough decision on 6th, which you didn't need to have. This is a big deal.

If you really think you need to call a raise on 7th, you should not bet. It is debatable that you need to call a bet if you check.

If this player has 2 neurons to rub together, he realizes that you have at least a big pair on 6th when you continue to bet, so your river bet can only be lost money and not won money, unless you get him to fold 2 pair, which you won't.

One pair is just one pair. What was once exciting on 3rd is far from it on 6th and 7th.

Dan Z.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

yea he didn't have a four str8 on the board. dang i hate it when i do that.

al

[MRBAA]

YOu gave him a pair of tens on his board in your post. I assume he did not in fact have that from your results. Against an unpaired board but with the three straight I probably bet fifth and check call sixth and seventh.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Him: (X X) 9h Th 8c 7s (X)

that's the original hand i gave him cut and paste from my post. Actually that 7s was a 4s. No pair of tens. I should have gotten hand history, no mistakes there. But I wrote it down on a pad of paper. D'oh! I hate it when I make a mistake in a post and don't notice till it's too late to change it.

Anyway, he DID have exactly pocket 55 at the end.

al

[DanZ]

Given the 89T on board, you will often do better checking and calling than betting, bluff-raising aside. The reason is, you might check 2 pair since he has a T98 showing. Since you might check 2 pair (and it's reasonable to do so), he may also check 2 pair, saving you a large bet fragment.

However, if you know he will bet 2 pair, you may still do better checking, as he will bluff sometimes, will fold 1 pair sometimes, and will be succeptible to a check-raise if you do make 2 big pair and can deduce from the liveness of the straight cards or pair cards that this is significantly more likely than a straight.

Simple game, isn't it?

Dan Z.