honestly, can ANYBODY beat these $0.50 games? (part vent...)

[DrewOnTilt]

Somebody tell me honestly, is it really possible to beat these stupid micro-limit games on Party Poker, or am I just kidding myself?

I started studying hold'em a few months ago because I can beat blackjack but can't get to the casino on a regular basis and wanted to develop some other card game skills. I did well my first week on Party Poker but have hemmoraged funds ever since, mostly via bad beats by nitwits who call to the river with junk.

Tonight is a prime example. I have played 180 hands and have raised preflop with AA, AKs, AJs, and KK once each, QQ twice, and with AKo three times. ALL of these hands save one AKo have gotten cracked, and all but one of the losses have come at the hands of some dolt who entered the pot with a trash hand but caught a miracle card on the turn or river.

This has been the story for several weeks now. I am seriously thinking of quitting, as I have begun to believe that until I can afford to play at a higher limit with players who actually FOLD their pocket threes on occasion, my time would be better spent honing my blackjack game.

This message is mostly me venting...but somebody tell me: is it REALLY possible to beat these micro-limit games or should I just wait until I can afford to play at a higher level?

Thanks,

Drew

[HavanaBanana]

Yes it is very possible, and if you cannot beat the 50c-1.00 you should not move up.
Read some pokerbooks on how to play in loose games, if you have KK and 7 players are in, and flop contains an ace, folding is often the correct option.
Suited connectors are great in these games so are all pairs.
Aj0 and such cards are to be played carefully and folded early, often before the flop.
Read the smallstakes forum here, ask questions about hands.

[Nottom]

Somebody tell me honestly, is it really possible to beat these stupid micro-limit games on Party Poker, or am I just kidding myself?

yes, if you can't beat the micro-limits you have serious leaks in your game.

You can either fix them at $.5/1 and lose maybe $100 or so while you learn or you can go play 3/6 and lose $1K. It's up to you, but I think the choice is pretty easy.

[asdf1234]

As everybody so far has stated, it is quite possible to crush these games, although they certainly can be frustrating at times. You must consider the type of game and adjust. Almost all of these are extremely loose passive games. Obviously strategies from HEPFAP don't apply (other than the loose games section).

These games are filled with horrible players, if you can't make money off of them, do you really think you have hope against average to good players?

[DrewOnTilt]

you're right about it being cheaper to learn on the $0.50 games. I'm not seriously thinking of moving up. I just can't seem to get a handle on all of these bad beats.

Any suggestions as to where I can find some serious, detailed play analysis? I can beat the hell out of Mike the Advisor on TTHE. Anywhere else I might look?

[Eihli]

180 hands eh? I don't think that's enough to draw any conclusions from.

And yes it's possible to beat the .5/1 party games, don't be ridiculous.

[MS Sunshine]

"I have played 180 hands and have ..."

Groan.

Yes, the micro-limits can be beat, if YOU are ready to beat the micros is a completely different question.

"I started studying hold'em a few months ago because I can beat blackjack but can't get to the casino on a regular basis and wanted to develop some other card game skills. I did well my first week on Party Poker but have hemmoraged funds ever since, mostly via bad beats by nitwits who call to the river with junk."

I know you are new to poker, so don't take this harshly, but blaming your loses on nitwits that play junk to the river is like wearing a T-shirt with the words "Poker Idiot" on it.

MS Sunshine

p.s. I meant that in the nicest way possible.

[tpir90036]

bad players are what makes the games beatable.

like tonight, i saw someone cold call a raise with 42o and flop quad deuces!! frustrating for the other people with pocket pairs slugging it out? sure. but in the long run.....

-tpir

p.s. "the long run" is waaaaaaay longer than 180 hands. if you are that fed up and thinking of quitting after only 180 hands.....yikes.

[eugeneel]

I can never beat those .50-1.00 games. Black jack is MUCH more beatable (as you already mentioned)

But as for myself, I am not a good blackjack player (it always seems like the house has odds on me when I play for some reason) So I go after the fish at the $25-$50 field.

-Eugene

[Gahnia radula]

Try poker tracker, I just started using it, its great!!!

Also you can post hands here, posters will be more than happy to give you some feed back

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Tonight is a prime example. I have played 180 hands and have raised preflop with AA, AKs, AJs, and KK once each, QQ twice, and with AKo three times. ALL of these hands save one AKo have gotten cracked, and all but one of the losses have come at the hands of some dolt who entered the pot with a trash hand but caught a miracle card on the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone has their days when none of their good cards produce wins. One day not too long ago I got AA, KK, and QQ at times in 10/20. I checked my pokertracker stats for that day, and those 8 hands had a composite total of -$1200 for me. Yeah it sucks, but it happens. Keep things in perspective though. I'd rather be me than someone on a 30/60 table with that same fate. Or 100/200. Or 200/400. Your losses are relatively insignificant, unless you're playing with money you can't afford to lose and are playing without the proper bankroll. And if that's the case, then you shouldn't be playing at all. Just understand that some days good cards don't win -- but you'll get repaid by those same suckers eventually.

[ QUOTE ]
This has been the story for several weeks now. I am seriously thinking of quitting, as I have begun to believe that until I can afford to play at a higher limit with players who actually FOLD their pocket threes on occasion, my time would be better spent honing my blackjack game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Poker isn't for everybody. Maybe it's not for you if you can't understand that on top of the skill that is involved, there is a decent amount of luck too at any given moment in time. Either accept it or don't.

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody tell me honestly, is it really possible to beat these stupid micro-limit games on Party Poker, or am I just kidding myself?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and in fact, they are beatable for many more BB/hr than higher stakes.

[GuyOnTilt]

If you can't beat the .5/1 games on Party (aka. THEE softest games around), then you shouldn't be thinking about moving up in limits. Make the necessary adjustments to your game, and keep playing. If you follow even the most basic strategies outlined in HPFAP or WLLH, you should be able to kill those games very consistently.

GoT

[Niceriver]

Hi DrewOnTilt
Yea, you can beat those microlimit games easily, and you need to know that all the cold callers are YOUR advantage... I know it's hard when they hit runner runner, gutshot ect. but just keep on going, i been there myself, and find it the easiest game to beat...(for most BB/hour) just suit your game for these tables. flushdraws, AX, suited connectors and low pair goes WAY UP in value, because of the passive and loose games you fint at these limits.
So my advice is clear: YES, they can EASILY be beaten just use the right skills.

Niceriver

[Lazymeatball]

How do you beat blackjack? How do you hone up on your blackjack skills? Are you counting cards?

[Homer]

This garbage has been talked about too many times. Doesn't anyone around here check the archives?!

Anyway...

- These games are easy to beat (relative to higher levels) -- you should be able to crush them before moving up

- No, higher limit games are not easier to beat because people fold more hands and play more straightforward

- 180 hands isn't even a blip on the radar

-- Homer

[Who Yaw]

In loose games, big pairs go down in value. In loose games, defined by me as four or more preflop and always a showdown, people will stay until the river if they have a pair. The showdown is almost always two pair or better. It’s just the nature of the game. You have to adjust.

Adjust by playing every suited ace, every suited connector above 54, and every pair. You are trying to outplay them after the flop. If you want, just call with your big pairs and buy a flop for 22. You know they will call all your bets through the river, so you have to start punishing them with sets, straights, and flushes. You have to punish the mistakes they are making, and their mistakes are calling through the river with two pair. When the game is passive, I will call in late position with every S&M hand. If 6 are already in, I’m raising half the time with my pairs and suited connectors, cards like AKs-98s. If the flop misses me, I’m out. Remember, their mistakes are post flop. You must punish post flop. If I have a 4-flush with three opponents on the flop, I’m raising and capping. I’ll check the turn and hopefully hit the river. With a set, I’m winning or losing a bucket of chips.

Also, loosen up in middle position if the table is dependably passive. I believe some of my biggest wins were with 98 and 87 that made boats or straights. If I’m not getting raised, I’m seeing flops. You must have the discipline to get out of the way when the board pairs and/or 2-flushes against you. If the board pairs, someone has trips. Just get out and wait. Discipline is a requirement of a winner, but it isn’t constrained to starting hands. Discipline yourself to fold on the flop. Save your chips and buy another flop. When you hit one, they will pay you.

[Homer]

I agree with your post for the most part, with one exception:

You are trying to outplay them after the flop. If you want, just call with your big pairs and buy a flop for 22.

Just calling preflop with big pairs is wrong.

-- Homer

[bunky9590]

while alot of people work on their starting hand requirements (this is still IMHO the ost important step for a beginner) You HAVE to know how to play post flop. Whe I sit at a .50/1, 1/2 or 2/4; I KNOW I can outplay everyone at the table postflop! Call it cocky or confident or what have you but you need to have that kind of confidence in your decisions to become a winner. Of course you better know what those decisions are with great certainty. Not chasing without odds, raising and betting for value, free card raising, rasing to drive people out, raising to get ore money in, leading into the raiser with a strog hand with callers in between you.

THAT is how you beat the .50/1 (and pretty much every other LL game) on a consistent basis.

[pc in NM]

First post from a longtime lurker...

As a relative newbie to online poker, I can relate to your frustration. I started online in October (Been reading these boards for over a year - great information!!) primarily to improve my game. I only play live about once a month, and needed more time to develop skills.

In my first two weeks I lost about 80% of my starting funds (~ 200BB) at Paradise and Party, and figured I was just another donation specialist, and was wondering how I might get tax deductions for all my charity.

Following the kind of advice that appears in this thread and reading Lee Jones' book helped me to make the adjustments that turned things around for me. In the last half of October, and through November, I was back into positive earnings (to about + 100BB, a change of +300BB) and feeling pretty confident.

I entered the December OIC, and by the end of the first week passed $100 and ventured into $1/$2 games. I nwas feeling pretty cocky, and envisioning a great future as a poker player. Then disaster hit. Semms like the only luck I had was bad. In the past week I've taken a big bath, losing my OIC stakes, and going down about another 100BB at Paradise and Party. My discouragment has benn huge, I've been screaming at my computer, and once again questioning all my skills, or lack thereof. And, it's ONLY been one short week!!!

A couple of observations from one newbie to another:

I've learned that there will be days, and even weeks, when the cards are cruel, the beats are bad, and luck is not in the room (at least, not in my seat). Occasional live play does not offer the reps to teach this lesson. Stick to your game, maintain discipline, and look for leaks. During these times, read here voraciously!!!

There will also be times when winning is so effortless, that you almost feel guilty raking in the pots - this is the other side of the losing equation - cards fall the way they fall, and sometimes they just fall your way. During these times, maintain your discipline, and realize that it's the cards, and not your skills that are "working"...

When in a losing streak, especially if you want to conserve cash flow, an economical option can be to play single table tournaments for fixed stakes - you can get in for $2.50 or $5,50, and get a lot of hands and experience without bleeding $$ in the process. I've done this @ TGC a couple of times, and even won some cash...

BTW, thanks to all the regular posters here - your information has been invaluable, the discussions illuminating, and I relish my daily visits here.

[daryn]

keep in mind he's trying to extract information about his game based on 180 hands /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Sheriff Fatman]

Hi PC

Hope this is the first of many posts. Not sure of your reasons for lurking but I've found getting involved in the posts to be a big help compared to my anonymous lurking days.

Just a couple of points from your note:

[ QUOTE ]
In the past week I've taken a big bath, losing my OIC stakes, and going down about another 100BB at Paradise and Party. My discouragment has benn huge, I've been screaming at my computer, and once again questioning all my skills, or lack thereof. And, it's ONLY been one short week!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this sounds to me like you are playing multiple sites/tables at once. If so, you're possibly not ready for this yet and this might have contributed to the bad week as the swings will be exacerbated. If this is the case I'd be inclined to stick to one game at a time, probably on a single site (to hopefully learn about some of your opponents' games) and with a single focussed goal (e.g. a bankroll target).

Losing your stake once at OIC is no sign that you're a poor player. The OIC is effectively being played short-stacked and busting out at 50BB doesn't really tell you much. However, its a really good way to learn the game at the various levels. If you're not already doing so I'd advise trying your own personal OIC (you can set your own limits for moving up) to build up a bankroll. If you do this on a site that supports Poker Tracker (assuming you don't own it already) then this is worth getting. It adds a hell of a lot to the learning curve.

Alternatively, have another go at the OIC. Not many people are tearing it up this time around (I'm now back in 0.5/1 after getting up to 2/4 at one point /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). You never know - you might hit one of your good runs, pick up a daily prize and win back your investment!

The other thing that confused me was you say that you play live games once a month. You may be talking about a home game or a B&M casino. If its a casino then presumably this must be at higher limits than 1/2. If this is the case then you are exposing yourself to more risk in those games than online.

Other than that it looks like you are doing all the right things to improve your game. Hope your game develops as you want it to and you can post again on here about all your successes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good luck

Sherriff

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
Just calling preflop with big pairs is wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Hands that are only marginally plus EV for a pre flop raise are best just calling in these loose passive games. Increasing the skill differential of the post flop play.

However big pars and AK are getting such a big chunk of the preflop pot, that not raising is giving up far more then you could expect by out-folding the opposition post flop.

Also you want to be raising with most of your decent hands in late position. It appears traditional to check to the raiser, and that with buying the button can be very useful.

[David Steele]

Which books have you read?


D.

[pc in NM]

Sherrif,

Thanks for your respone.

No, I don't play multiple games, but do often have distractions - minor things , like work /images/graemlins/shocked.gif, browsing the net, watching TV, etc. When my "luck" is running bad, though, I eliminate even those (short of quitting my job, that is!)....

I started using PokerTracker about two weeks into my online carreer, and it's really been useful, not only for tracking my own performance but that of opponents, also.

I never considered online play, until I started to become successful in live play. I realized how much I learned in each live session (only about 12, so far), but that that learning was also pretty expensive. Originally, I tried free money games, but they were worse than useless. Finally ventured into real money (the hardest thing was actually getting mney to the card rooms!), and the learning has been exponential ever since.

My OIC experience was not discouraging, though I did have my first $1/$2 game with three other 2+2 folks, with three others watching and chatting - I folded a couple of good hands to agressive play that was different than the typical play I'd previously encountered - another lesson!

While my past week was just awful, I think I've weathered the storm, and have done better the last two days. I'll definitely join any more OIC's, and may even do as you suggest and start my own...

Thanks again!

[wdbaker]

Listen to what these guys are all saying, they've been there. Also if you are playing at party make sure you pick the proper tables to play on. You want to find loose passive tables. You don't have to jump in right away to play, watch for a round, you want to see four or more in preflop and very little raising, anything else and you might want to go find a better table, especially if your new to this.

Just my two cents

[Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
Listen to what these guys are all saying

[/ QUOTE ]
I am unanimous in that.

If you can't beat the 50 cent games (and absolutely destroy play money) moving up will only result in bigger losses.

[Losing all]

Party .50/1. can be brutal over any short period of time. I think I"m a pretty decent mid-limit player, and I've dropped $75 in my last 4 hours of this trash. Can the game be beat? yes. Will you drop a ton of chips with what looks like a nut flush(Never forget the deadly 35 could be out there for the SF) and with AA hu against A7. Yes, many times a day. (that's my last 2 hands not 10 minutes ago)

You gotta grin and bear that sheet. These fools will pay you in the long run. Just don't tilt away extra when you're on a run like I am.

[dink]

why not try pacific poker, the software isn't that great, the games are slow but I win much more there than I ever do at party, much easier games to win IMHO

[DrewOnTilt]

Jones book, HPFAP, theory of poker, Ken Warren's low limit book, Hold 'em Excellence, Poker for Dummies. And I will read any other that I can get my hands on if it will help.

[DrewOnTilt]

Yes, I do count cards and can win that way at blackjack. There are other ways of improving one's edge at blackjack that I have not yet explored thoroughly.

I think that part of my poker problem is that I am still in "blackjack mode" when I sit down to make a wager on cards. A winning blackjack player knows exactly what is the correct decision in all situations. Poker is not nearly as mechanical; I find myself yearning for the decisive "You must always take Action X in Situation Y" of a blackjack game.

[DrewOnTilt]

Hi all!

I never thought that my keyboard rage would unleash this discussion. Good stuff, though; thanks for the feedback. Some additional questions and comments:

1) Where can I get Poker Tracker? It seems like that might be helpful

2) I have read Jones' book and a number of other books (see my post above).

3) I know that 180 hands is not the long run, nor is my current total of 4,106 hands. But after 75 hours of play I am losing 1.87 BB per hour, and that worries me. There are obviously some holes in my play, but I can't seem to identifiy them.

4) I don't blame the clueless players who limp in with trash for my losses. I was just bitter yesterday. I understand that I ultimately control whether I win or lose. But I'm losing even though I am reading the books and this site and doing my best to apply the principles that I learn. I'm the sucker at the table and I can't figure out why.

Alright. My vent is over. Thanks for the responses, and peace out.

Drew

[Terry]

Get Poker Tracker (http://www.pokertracker.com/) here. You'll probably discover that you need to cut the number of hands you're playing in half.

You might want to get Hold 'em Poker by David Sklansky. Yes, it's different than HPFAP. It will ground you firmly in the basics of the game.

[bernie]

ya think the .50 tables are tough? then the penny tables (.01-.02) must be even worse. actually, i built a little roll by starting on the pennies. with $.15.

of course theyre beatable.

b

[inkstain]

How much do they rake in the $0.50/$1.00 games?

[Webster]

The rake for mosy games has from from 3% to 3.5%. Not a big deal in my book and WAY WAY better then live games

[Joe Tall]

If you can't beat an LL game you won't be able to beat a higher limit game.

Looks like you've got some serious problems with tilt. If you don't want a player to call your raise with 33 when you hold AA, you are not thinking properally about the game.

Poker is emotional game, maybe you are better off with a game like blackjack that is much more mechanincal.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Jim Kuhn]

180 hands........... for several weeks................ do you play like five minutes per day? You should be able to easily play 180 hands in one day (or evening).

[DesertEagle]

I play the $0.50-1 all the time, and I crush the games... I used to play $2-4 and $3-6 on Party, with a reasonable amount of success, but the variance was too much for my limited student bank-roll... I couldn't handle loosing a few nights in a row, so I moved down to the $0.50-1.00 games, and the $1-2 games...

Now my routine is to play two $0.50-1.00 games, and one $1-2. I find I win around $15-20/hour this way, as long as I'm not completely card dead...

The thing you need to realize is that they are a much different game than a tough $5-10 or $10-20... and I know maybe people, who think they're great players, who can't beat these games... The thing is is that you need to forget about all your "moves" and advanced techniques...

And u need to not over-value hands like AQo that can play well in tighter games. Top-pair with a good kicker isn't that great of a hand in a 7-way pot... And if the flush card hits on the turn, and you get check raised, just let it go...

I find the people that lose $$ in these loose games are the ones that go all the way to the river with AA, knowing that they're beat, just so they can turn their cards up at the end and say "nice catch! AA cracked again!!"

You need to play only hands that can handle multi-way action (pairs and suited connectors, etc), and I find that loosening up a bit pre-flop, and playing tighter after the flop is a good strategy...

The games are very beatable if you make the right adjustments...

good luck...

D-Eagle

[lefty rosen]

To be honest your play maybe too advanced for this form of bingo poker, I myself can't do better than marginally win on tables like this, so I don't bother even to play higher stakes tables that play like this. Try 1/2 or 2/4 at Party the players who are clueless are more spread out across the tables and they don't create as much of a schooling affect as at .5/1 .

[DesertEagle]

arguably if you're a talented, experienced player, you could win at your chosen limit, and any limit below it...

The problem is one of adjusting to game texture, and that may be one skill, despite all your other skills and experience, that you lack... (no offense)

[RollaJ]

My GF beat the $.50-$1 game for 70 BB on Saturday (while I was at the Taj and won 32 BB at $20-40). I was so proud of her, I cant wait to go down to AC together and tear up the $2-4 together /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
I cant wait to go down to AC together and tear up the $2-4 together

[/ QUOTE ]

Rake is nearly unbeatable at this level as you probably know. The players are god awful, allowing for some big wins, but also big losses. Taken in the long run, its really really really difficult to beat these games for any real amount, at some places, its not possible. Trust me, I take my GF to FW or AC also and she plays 2-4. She wins some, she loses some, she kills the LL party games but live the drop is too much.

[Don_Lapre]

Hi, I haven't read all of the previous posts so I might be repeating some ideas. I think the biggest thing is that you have to adjust your style to the game your in. No-fold'em games aren't even poker, it's just the best hand wins so your looking to play pocket pairs, ace-X suited, and big suited connecters. Your trying to make the nuts or a very strong hand. Hands like A-Q, K-Q, A-J go down in value and are difficult to play in those games.

Don

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Now my routine is to play two $0.50-1.00 games, and one $1-2. I find I win around $15-20/hour this way, as long as I'm not completely card dead...

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure that you are a good player and are simply crushing these games. Still, $15-20/hr cannot be right for any sustained period of time at those limits, even given multiple tables. Do you track your play with pokertracker or something similar? Best of luck.

Colgin

[Webster]

Pocket pairs go way way down in value once the flop hits 45%.

[Nottom]

Pocket pairs go way way down in value once the flop hits 45%.

Wrong.

[MicroBob]

"Now my routine is to play two $0.50-1.00 games, and one $1-2. I find I win around $15-20/hour this way, as long as I'm not completely card dead... "

actually...i have no doubt this is accurate. please note that with the whole 'card-dead' stipulation that he is actually not stating his average over all hours played...he's pretty much saying what his average is during his winning sessions...or something like that.

you win $15/hr when you're doing well....lose $5/hr ween card dead.

averages out to +$5/hr perhaps??

i think we all make around 5BB or more hour per table when we are getting the cards....and we make significantly less than that when we are card dead.
in fact, it's this logic that keeps the fishies around also....
"darn, i would be a winning player if i weren't so card-dead all the time" ignoring the fact that they are seeing 50% of the flops.

[Inthacup]

Pocket pairs go way way down in value once the flop hits 45%.


ROFL

[MicroBob]

you mean you plated 180 WHOLE hands and didn't walk away a winner??? how on earth did that happen??

sorry, but most experts' games are not quite strong enough to have such a high EV that they an guarantee a win after 1 hour on 3 tables.

i had a less than spectacular run yesterday and today where KK, AA and AK are getting busted by the fishies with poor holdings.....this followed a nice little run the previous 2 days where i was hitting every flop imaginable.
out of the norm??? an amazing turn of events??? ummmmm,,,.. not really.

[Webster]

So you are saying you would rather play QQ against 7 guys they QQ against 2 guys right? hmmmmm!

OK _OK - I'll retract that - In Loose Aggressive games small pairs move up - you are correct.

Loose/Passive - Suited connectors gain value
Loose/Aggressive - SMALL pairs but Suited connectors lose value, un-suited high cards lose value.

I stand corrected!

[FredJones888]

-PRO’S FOR INTERNET GAMES

VERY CONVENIENT
MICRO LIMITS FOR PRACTICE

-CON’S FOR INTERNET GAMES

MANY SERIOUS PLAYERS AT ALL LIMITS, EVEN PENNIES, THERE TO PRACTICE
ALWAYS AVAILABLE, VERY HARD TO WALK AWAY
RESEMBLES A VIDEO GAME
TEMPTING TO PLAY WHEN BORED OR BEFORE BED
CAN DRASTICALLY INTERFERE WITH SLEEP AND INTERACTION AT HOME
LIMITS WELL ABOVE MY SKILL LEVEL AND BANKROLL
CHEATING BY THE PLAYERS CANNOT BE STOPPED

-PRO’S FOR BRICK AND MORTAR CASINOS

COMPETITION IS DEFINITELY EASIER THAN INTERNET AT THE SAME LIMIT
MUCH EASIER TO REGULATE TIME SPENT PLAYING
MONEY ALWAYS SEEMS REAL
NO HIGHER LIMITS AVAILABLE IN MY AREA, LESS TEMPTATION
MUCH MORE VISUAL/SOCIAL INFORMATION, HELPS WITH BLUFFING
MUCH BETTER TRAINING FOR VACATION GAMBLING TRIPS

-CON’S FOR BRICK AND MORTAR CASINOS

COMMUTE TIME
TEMPTING TO CONSUME ALCHOHOL
TEMPTING TO PLAY GAMES LIKE SLOT MACHINES

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Rake is nearly unbeatable at this level as you probably know. The players are god awful, allowing for some big wins, but also big losses. Taken in the long run, its really really really difficult to beat these games for any real amount, at some places, its not possible. Trust me, I take my GF to FW or AC also and she plays 2-4. She wins some, she loses some, she kills the LL party games but live the drop is too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats where I started playing.... 2-4 at the Trop. I would usually either break even or win 50-100 with a loss or two thrown in...... it took me 3 months of weekends to get my bank roll from 200-700, now I have hands where I lose 500.... funny how that happens