How I play KJ offsuit from early postion...

[Mike Gallo]

Hi everyone;

I sat in a $2-$4 game at the Borgata with poster Brian0729 last night. He sat to my immediate right. He mucked from UTG and I picked up KJ offsuit. I held up the cards high enough for him to see them and asked if he wanted to see how I played KJ offsuit. He nodded yes and I mucked my cards.

As the hand played out I would have flopped a King but lost to a woman who had a straight. During the course of the hand, Brian and I debated how I would not have had the best hand.

[brian0729]

It was an absolute perfect example of why not to play this hand from EP. If he would have called he would have been in a multi way pot with this hand. yuck. The flop was broad way cards and he would have gotten three or four callers with there second pair the whole way and would have been run down by the river.

Nice muck MG

[Nottom]

This is the second time today, I've seen the heres why you don't play <insert random offsuit bigcard hand here.> post, where someone would have flopped a decent hand but would have lost the pot.

How does this hand play out any differently if he instead had KQs or AK or some hand he "should" be playing. People are going to suck out ... its what fish do.

(Note: this message is neither advocating or disadvocating playing KJ from EP)

[brian0729]

Hey nottom

Your exactly correct the results of this hand would have been no different if he held the hands you mentioned. We were talking thru out the night about the amount of post on here that address these kinds of big cards. Post about "how do I play KJo and QJo etc." Most of the times it comes down to them being played in multiway pots and people complaining why there TPTK doesnt stand up. Most of the times these hands should be avoided in theses situations. You already know that and do know when you can play them. Not everyone does (Im still very good at butchering them myself still), MG and I thought this was a good example thats all.

I didnt see the other post so sorry for jumping on the bash big unsuited card day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nottom]

It was someting about playing ATo after 3 limpers on the button and having the flop come AQT only to end up losing to AQ

[Mike Gallo]

Nottom,

I wanted to make give an example of how dangerous KJ can become to a new player. I found the dialogue I shared with Brian interesting, so I thought I would post it for some of the newer players who question how to play KJ A 10 out of postion.

How does this hand play out any differently if he instead had KQs or AK or some hand he "should" be playing. People are going to suck out ... its what fish do.

Granted, however with KJ you have a difficult time judging where you stand, with AK you have more of a handle of your hand when you flop a King. In the hand described, I would have had a tough time playing the hand because of how coordinated the board got and how many players entered the pot. I did not want to raise out of position with the hand,so I mucked.

[chesspain]

nottom,

Obviously, any hand you are holding, including AA, may be outdrawn. I think that one point about playing a hand like KJo is that you are going to be dominated by more hands than if you are playing a hand like AQ, KQ, or AJ. In addition, when you don't improve, you remain behind Ax the entire way, which a calculated risk you allow yourself to take when you raise with an even better hand like KQo because of the higher kicker and the better top pair you can make with the Q. However, I don't think the potential benefits outweigh the risks when you have KJo, unless you are openraising from LP are later on a steal.

[slavic]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who mucks broadway trash in EP. When you think of the fish in your game, they always seem to be the ones who can't get away from these hands.

[Nottom]

I understand why KJo isn't a hand you want to get involved with out of position, I just think using a hand where someone rivered a straight to win doesn't really prove anything.

KJo doesn't suck because it loses to QT making a straight even when you flop top 2 pair or because some guy with 88 flopped a set. It sucks because it loses to KQ or AJ or whatever dominating hand is out there when it flops top pair.

[Mike Gallo]

Chess,

I think that one point about playing a hand like KJo is that you are going to be dominated by more hands than if you are playing a hand like AQ, KQ, or AJ

Excellent points.

In the hand I played I didnt know if I had the best king. I would have faced a highly coordindinated board with a decent hand out of postion.

[Homer]

While it's true that when you flop top pair of K's with KJ, it isn't *that* much worse than doing so with AK, that doesn't mean that KJ isn't much worse than AK. Something I'm surprised no one mentioned is that when you flop top pair of J's with KJ, it's a lot more likely to be outdrawn than when you flop top-pair of A's with AK.

BTW, nice to meet MG, Brian and everyone else. Sorry I couldn't hang around longer...

-- Homer

[bunky9590]

Well played, that's why i left that table with you guys quickly to get back to those juicy 6-12 games!!!!

[Mike Gallo]

Well played, that's why i left that table with you guys quickly to get back to those juicy 6-12 games!!!!

Bunky,

I forgot that you even sat with us for a few orbits /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[bunky9590]

yeah, tried to run over the weak players but runner runner str8s got my pairs, luckily i lost the minimum on both hands. Was nice to sit with you all though.

[bernie]

IF i was going to play JKo from here, and i have, id raise. no way id limp. but there are alot of factors that go with doing that. mainly, good knowledge of the table/opponents.

easily folded as my default.

b

[Mike Gallo]

IF i was going to play JKo from here, and i have, id raise.

People did not respect raises at all at this table.

mainly, good knowledge of the table/opponents.

As with most of my decisions.