Moving in with a four flush on the flop

[ScottC]

I've noticed on PokerStars NLHE tournaments that a lot of folks move in with a four flush on the flop. Sometimes not even the nut flush draw. Most of the times this fails, but, of course, it just worked against me (grrr).

Am I missing something? Specifically, is there something about NL tournament play that makes this more valuable than in cash limit games (where most of my experience lies)? Or is the flush draw just too tempting to most suckers?

Details (obligatory bad beat story): I have 1475 in chips, he has 1155 in chips. We are both short stacked at this table and in the tourney. 75/150 blinds. My table image is tight aggressive, but we've been moving people in and out a lot. I could be seen as tight passive by some, but I've made a few plays to keep in the black with cards that have not been strong (no pairs over 6, best hand so far: AJo).

Me on BB: Ad Tc. CO raises the minimum, I call (should have raised? moved in? I think he would have called anyway, because I'm seeing now he felt desperate -- beware the cornered animal).

Flop 9c 4h Ac, and I move in because I'm pretty darn sure he doesn't hold an A. I'm right. He holds 5c Kc, the nut flush draw, and calls. Not a call I would ever make -- he still had 1100 chips left in late position. I guess he had already decided he was going to make his stand.

Turn Ah, feeling a little happier. River 7c. Somehow, I can believe it.

www.PokerCalc.com (http://www.PokerCalc.com) says I was a 3 to 2 favorite pre-flop, almost 2 to 1 on flop (13 to 7 when he called). And it's worthless to note I was better than 5 to 1 ahead on the turn.

Typical bad beat. No need to comment on that, although sympathy and contructive suggestions are always welcome.

I'm most interested in my question: Is there something about NL tournament play that makes a flush draw more valuable than in cash limit games?

[Scooterdoo]

Of course in a regular cash game you can't move all in with the 4 flush draw, but it is common to semi-bluff with it which isn't a bad play at all.

Now it's one thing to move all-in with a 4 flush draw and another thing to call all-in. In many situations in NL it wouldn't be a bad play to move all-in (of course he didn't do this in this situation). If the pot is good and he had been representing an A, or if he has already made top pair or any pair and had the 4 flush it's not a bad play at all, especially if he either a) has everyone in the hand covered by a good margin or b) he is getting desperate to make a move and in danger of being blinded out.

In the circumstance you describe I assume your opponent has made the decision that this is the time to take his stand and try to double up to remain in the tournament. You don't say how short-stacked he is, but if the table is one where you can rarely limp to see the flop and everyone is very aggressive he could feel that he needs to take his shot soon or get blinded out quickly. With the chips he has if he doesn't make this move he may only have one more flop to see before he is crippled and then things will really get desperate. He obviously knows that he is an underdog here, that you either have a pair of Aces or another pair -- he may be hoping that you're on a flush draw too, but I doubt it if he's counting on it. He's making the decision that he'll just go for it -- he does have a 1/3 chance of catching his flush which would put him back in the tournament.

So my long winded answer to your question is that in NL tournaments you need to access your situation, not just in terms of odds on the particular hand but also in terms of the odds of what your likelihood of survival is if you don't make the move.

[JohnG]

One of the main differences between limit play and no-limit is that the size of the bets in no-limit allow hands to be won more often without showdown when compared to limit. This obviously has an impact on strategy between the 2 games. Bluffing is a more effective tool when you can make big bets.

It doesn't mean moving all-in is always right with a flush draw, but it can often be the best play. Folding and just calling can also be the best play depending on the actual situation.

[JohnG]

Given his stack, he made a mistake raising the minimum preflop. All-in is probably his best raise.

I haven't looked closely, but on the flop his call looks pretty close to being ok. Not too bad, and most people would check an ace in your spot, so if he doesn't give you the ace, it is a good call.

Preflop, your choice is normally re-raise him all-in or fold depending on whether you think you are best or not. But as you were the BB, you could just call if you think you have the best hand, with the intention of betting all-in on flop when you miss, to maybe get him to fold hands that had you buried in the event you were wrong and not ahead. i.e. AJ, AQ.

You also have the added bonus of him maybe folding a small/medium pair when you do this, (but that isn't a reason to do this by itself when you have 2 big unpaired cards).

On flop, if he's a normal player, he will usually bluff at it if you check. Which is why a lot of players check the ace there. And if he thinks that too, then he didn't necessarily give you the ace, making his call a good one in his mind.

[PrayingMantis]

I'm very far from being an expert, but I'll try to say something anyways.

First, I wouldn't really consider the situation you described a bad-beat, and it's not just terminology. Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but he will get his nut flush more than one third of the times he moves here. So if you're all-in, 1 out of 3 times you're going home. It's far from being surprising when it happens, it's not like he has 2 outs and wins. So, as somebody already said here, maybe he decided to take his chance. Of course he's losing money in terms of pot-odds, but I guess stack-size can really matter, and how far is it from the next level.

And second thing, if he thinks you might be pushing with TT, JJ, QQ or even Q9, J9, T9, 88, 77 (i've seen people moving in with 2nd pair on flops like this when they are short) his EV is around 0.46, which is much better than third. Not to mention the possibility you're bluffing with nothing, and I wouldn't be sure he noticed you are tight, not in a multy, where players change tables.


But he probably just knew he's going to make his flush....

Oh, and another small thing. The odds after the turn was dealt are completely irrelevant. You are in already.


PrayingMantis

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
almost 2 to 1 on flop (13 to 7 when he called).

[/ QUOTE ]

I count 1680 in the pot that he will win if he calls and 855 left in his stack. So he is getting almost 2:1 on his call and the right price to draw to his flush. Not much you can do. You want him to call.

[tpir90036]

it wasn't a bad beat...he had the right price for his draw (whether he knew it or not) and was short stacked and needed to make something happen.

and once you hit top pair you really had no choice but to go all-in.

ATo is a piece of crap and if you were going to play it you should have just gone all-in pre-flop. he might have called anyway though...

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course in a regular cash game you can't move all in with the 4 flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, why not?

[ScottC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course in a regular cash game you can't move all in with the 4 flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, why not?

[/ QUOTE ]Well, the assumption was limit games, since that where I said most of my experience was.

In any case, thanks to everyone for the thoughtful replies. You've shined some light on weaknesses in my NL tournament game. It shows where I need to do some studying.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Scott,

As others have said, I think you misplayed this pre-flop. If you're going to play ATos in this situation, I'd move in and hope to take the pot right there. On the other hand, he may well have called regardless, and in fact he'd have been correct to do so as he would have been getting better than 2:1 pot odds.

Similarly, he was correct to call your all-in. If he folds here, he has only 850 chips left (less than 6xBB) which means he has to move all-in pre-flop on the next hand he chooses to play. So he has a choice of moving all-in here, where he already has money invested, already has a four flush, and is getting the right pot odds to call ... or being forced to move all-in a few hands later in what may be a worse situation for him.

The more interesting (to me) question is whether he should have moved all-in pre-flop. His minimum raise exposed him to an all-in behind him, which would have put him to a hard choice: risking that the reraiser is on a dominant hand. A 3xBB raise would have been more than 1/3 of his stack, leaving him no leverage on the flop if called.

So it seems to me his better play -- if he's going to play this hand at all -- is to move all-in pre-flop. This gives him the intrinsic value of his hand (if called), plus a greater chance to win the pot pre-flop.

So you both misplayed it pre-flop, and you both played it correctly on the flop, and he caught luckier. That's why they call it gambling and not banking.

Cris

[Scooterdoo]

Because he wanted to compare NL to limit where you can't make the move.

[Bozeman]

"You want him to call. "


Absolutely false

[tpir90036]

i was thinking NL cash games and not limit cash games. as you were... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AceHigh]

True, my bad. You would prefer he folds, but you are a solid favorite.