AKo BB raise w/ family pot - LL

This happened last night, and I thought it was a mistake. $4-8 loose passive game


Everyone called from utg to the sb - family pot. BB raises. Of course all called. Turns out BB raised with AKo.


I thought this was a major error as BB raise now ties every possible draw after the flop to the pot. Opinions?

not a 'major' mistake. LL their not worrying about the proper odds to call anyway. its ok to charge em extra to see the flop.


i tend to just check here, unless its suited.


but if the flop come uncoordinated with an A or K high, he may be sitting pretty well.


b

In my personal experience, a family pot in a LL game will usually see most of the players go at least to the turn if not the river anyway. I doubt most know or care about the actual odds... That said, I think I have to wuss out and say I really am not sure what's the better play. By raising you would indeed be sitting pretty with an A or K high ragged flop, but in a family pot you would probably be very vulnerable to any draws. Furthermore, the pre flop raise probably would make it correct for all of the draws to stick around to the end (whether or not they know this). Personally, I would not raise in this situation, waiting to see the flop and maybe even the turn before I bet out or raise. Chances are someone will bet the flop, so you probably wouldn't lose anything by checking. With AKs I may be more inclined to raise, but not too often. Actually, this thought has given me a question for the forum: is any hand (short of say AA or KK) really worth raising from the BB in a family pot? I suppose you will still win more than your fair share with the same hands, but pretty much anything is vulnerable to being out drawn. Would you raise with usual hands and then adopt the fit or fold idea? It's just something that I had not previously put much thought into (after all even in LL, family pots are not THAT common. At least not in my games). It's something worth considering though.


Wanderer

In theory, you are probably right. With that many players, drawing hands like pairs and suited connectors are getting implied odds from offsuited high cards. Making the pot twice as big virtually guarantees that there is NO chance of the BB being able to make ANYONE make a mistake by drawing to anything after the flop, even if the SB bets and the BB raises. Also, the chance of the BB being able to get in a pot-thinning check-raise probably just went out the window.


However, there may be a slight double-edged sword at play here. If the limpers are limping with absolutely terrible hands, AKo may be SO much better than the average hand that it's still somehow theoretically profitable to raise.


But I still wouldn't do it.


Dave in Cali (in Vegas)

Well, this was the same game I saw a raise with J3o before the bitchers showed up...and killed tha action.

I guess the bitchers never see a game that actually has any real action because as soon as they sit down the action disappears. too bad for them, they know not what thay miss! of course since they already know everything there is to know about every subject in the universe there's no room to learn anything new anyway........

With everyone seeing the flop, all possible draws are going to have proper odds to chase anyway. I would raise AKo everytime.

I am still a beginning poker player so my logic here may be off.


First, just to make the discussion easier, lets assume noone is limping with AA or KK. Obviously if someone has AA or KK you are in trouble whether you raise or not.


So, lets say you have 8 opponents. Against 8 random hands you are going to win approximately 20% of the pots. That means that for every $4 bet that goes in the pot, $0.80 is yours (theoretically). You put in $4 and get $7.20 out. This seems like a good deal.


You say that it isn't 8 random hands, so your chances of winning are less because there are "better than random" cards out there. Like A9s? KQs? I rather be against these hands with AKo than random hands. I haven't run any simulations, but I'm guessing that you still win approximately 20% of the pots in a family pot with AK.


So, my question is, why would you not want to raise before the flop and have everyone make a mistake right then? Why do you want to give someone the chance to make a correct decision and fold a longshot draw on the flop or turn because the pot odds weren't there? The idea of this game is to have your opponents make mistakes. So what if someone has pot odds to chase after the flop. They are chasing their own money.


I can understand limping with AKo in the BB if you think that you can make your opponents make more mistakes after the flop when you hit than the total mistake the group is making preflop going against your Big Slick. But I believe limping to keep the pot small so people won't draw to longshots is a mistake in this situation.

Okay look at it this way. If the BB just limped there would have been $40.00 in the pot. All ready a nice pot and preflop at that. Now the BB raises, and there is $80.00 in the pot.


After the flop everyone is getting a shot at $80.00 for a $4.00 bet, or 20:1. Even with one raise they are getting at least 10:1. That covers almost every hand and makes it a good call even with an inside straight.


At 10:1 at least a few may drop out. So BB doesn't get any help with their AKo. They made a great pot for someone else. Even AKo has odds to call, but common sense needs to prevail.

I'm writing this before reading the other responses.


When I was working on my low-limit strategy, Dave in Cali and Abdul Jalib both strongly urged me to ALWAYS make this raise as a value raise, because I am SUCH a huge favorite compared to the junk that the rest of these guys are playing. Bear in mind, it might not be greater than 50% that you are going to win the pot ... it probably isn't. But your odds are something like (I'm making up this number) maybe 1/4 to win the pot, compared to the average over all 9 players of 1/9 (if 9-handed) to win the pot.


The Sklansky theory is correct, that you make the other players less likely to make mistakes by calling on later streets, if you make the pot bigger. I finally came down on the side that the preflop gain is bigger than the postflop theoretical loss.


This would be true, in my opinion, for basically all S&M Cat. 1 and 2 hands, plus AQo. With a true 9-10 hand family pot, it may also be true for some more good drawing hands like QJs or JTs, but I'm not sure of my ground here.


Dick

Oops! I re-checked my web page, and it was not Dave who gave me this advice, it was MJChicago, plus Abdul. sorry, Dave.


Dick


email: Dick@annabelles-treasures.com