fold to a check-raise? need help...

[tpir90036]

2/4 party 10 handed. very passive game. this hand is against an opponent who seems to be a little too loose post-flop but has mostly reasonable pre-flop raising/calling standards.

i am on the button with 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

folded to opponent in MP who open raises, i 3-bet, the BB calls 2 cold and MP calls.

3 to the flop:
A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
BB checks, MP checks (QQ-TT??), I bet, BB folds, MP check-raises...

so, i don't have the odds to spike a 9...and it sure looks like i am behind, so is folding to this check-raise in any way acceptable? is the call of the raise for table image purposes only? i did not consider this opponent overly tricky and firmly believed i was behind. in any event, i called the raise and folded on the turn when bet into. <font color="blue"> am i missing something major here? i feel like folding is weak, raising is maniacal and calling is dumb.</font>

so has anyone ever actually made this fold on the flop after a C/R? would i have been suicidal to 3-bet? or to even raise the flop if he bet into me? what is the borderline for good aggression and dumb aggression? i know, i know, it's player dependent. i just have this urge to blast away on the raise button...but i am afraid to be an idiot about it.

thanks in advance...
-tpir

[BottlesOf]

I think it's a good fold.

I don't know that I'd 3 bet with 99. I understand the virtues of isolating the raiser, but given that he's loose post flop, he's not gonna let go easily. Plus if over cards fall, T-A (all of which he could be holding), you're in a potentially tricky spot.

[tpir90036]

you think it's a good fold on the turn or to fold to the check-raise immediately?

i 3-bet pre-flop becasue i had actually seen him open-raise with some questionable hands from MP as a steal.

[Monty Cantsin]

I think one calls in this situation at least partly as a result of deeply embedded emotional and psychological forces. There's a very strong pressure within the human psyche to behave consistently, it makes us very uncomfortable to appear to be acting inconsistently in a public setting. Also, of course, there is the macho desire to "not give in", as if bets were pushes in a shoving match, (which they are sort of). But if you are certain you're beat, and you don't have odds to call, you should fold here every time. As for table image, it depends on what you want that image to be. Often it's better to give the impression that your hand was crap all along. At the tables I play, I usually want more action, not more folds.

Having said all that, I think I would probably call here. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

/mc

[Bob T.]

There is an Ace and a King on the flop, you three bet preflop ( which I think is a very good play in this case ) and now you get checkraised and you have a pair of nines. Unless I have been folding a lot to plays like this, I think that this is an easy fold on the flop. You don't gain enough by calling, to make calling and folding on the turn a reasonable play.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
you think it's a good fold on the turn or to fold to the check-raise immediately?

i 3-bet pre-flop becasue i had actually seen him open-raise with some questionable hands from MP as a steal.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, if you think he would openraise as well as play back at you with crap on the flop then why even bet when it's checked to you on a board like this? By checking it down you'll lose less when he has you beat and you'll win the most when you're ahead and bluffing at you all the way down.

Don't bet for information if you don't want to believe the information that you receive. If you really think that your hand is best then 3-bet the flop or at least checkcall it down.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
this hand is against an opponent who seems to be a little too loose post-flop but has mostly reasonable pre-flop raising/calling standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

loose meaning, chases cards? what about his postflop (check)raising/calling standards? keep track of these standards for all streets and situations(types of boards) he plays on.

even though if he's pulling a semibluff with JJ or TT or even QQ, which is doubtful, you're still beat. and if he's capable of this, then it's a matter of whether a 3 bet will make him lay it down. but you better know your opponent pretty well before trying that. your description, it doesnt sound like he's that type of player. he sounds pretty str8 forward in his play and not too tricky.

id fold. and wait for a better spot

b

[tpir90036]

i was hoping he had something where the board scared him (QQ-TT, QJ, KJ) and i wanted to take a stab at it since it was heads-up. i hadn't seen him get tricky before and had not seen him check-raise until this hand. however i didn't know if folding immediately would make me look like a super pu$$y and have people taking shots at me the rest of the session....assuming they were even paying attention.

since he didn't reraise preflop and then CR-ed me, my feelings were that he had AK and was hoping i caught a small piece and would take a stab at it. he told me after the hand that he had AK....although he certainly could have been lying.

thanks for all of the responses....
-tpir

[bunky9590]

What was suicidal was the three bet preflop, i dont like it much, I will open raise with 99 all day long but rarely will 3 bet with it. Of course you can fold on the flop to the check raise. At that point dont put good money after bad. (you may in the future want to take a peek at the turn card for free to try to spike your set)

[Vehn]

Since I've somehow tricked tpir90036 into thinking I know what I'm talking about here's my thoughts on stuff like this.

1st off you almost certainly played the hand correctly. 99 is too good of a hand here against an MP open raise to let go of and coldcalling is a poor choice unless there is a stream of idiots coming over from other tables and lining up behind you to coldcall as well. And you just have to let this go when checkraised on the flop against a sane opponent, and let it go right there on the flop.

However what you really need to keep in mind is that everyone kind of has a "weak tight" meter. What I mean is when you make this sort of laydown, your meter goes down and people may think you're weak and will let go of hands you obviously like. To "raise your meter" you will need to call down more, often when you're pretty sure you're beat, just so people know they can't push you around. This concept more applies to B&amp;M games or games where you're constantly playing with the same opponents - almost definetly not in LL online games.

These types of situations suck but again you need to realize what seperates good players from poor is primarily that a) we don't pay off like ATMs when we're sure we're beat and b) we don't chase long odds. Often this can appear to be "weak tight" - its just something you have to keep in mind and occasionally make plays you are pretty sure are -EV for the sake of future hands. Again, this doesn't apply well to LL online games and for the most part you are best served making this type of laydown immediatly and often.

One more thing to note is that when you get to higher limits or are playing against stronger opposition, the "weight" of flop bets/raises goes way down and you can't automatically assume you're beat. Often its best to reraise with position and take control of the hand. However thats more in a situation where there's just one overcard - here in almost any game against sane players you're clearly beat and you have to lay your hand down and move to the next hand.

Hope that helps.

[tpir90036]

thank you for the response....

i am glad you liked my 3-bet. it seemed like the right thing to do at the time and i will do it again in a situation like this one.

the truth is that i don't really have a lot of experience with calling people down. i play 1/2 and 2/4 online and when someone who has been check-calling the whole time bets into 4 opponents when a third club hits the board....he is there.

as it is i probably fold a few winners every session...i am starting to learn just how player dependent all of this is (especailly heads-up) and actually made a good call down a few minutes ago on a paired, 3-flush board with only an over pair. i was very, very surprised when the party "fireworks" went off.

it's weird becasue when i play B&amp;M i am not nearly as afraid becasue i can see that the people in front of me are drunk bozos (at least in AC they are). maybe i am afraid of being constantly surrounded by 2+2-ers on-line. who knows...

i think that tight-aggressive play lies somewhere in between calling station, weak-tight and maniac. i just want to make sure that i don't stray too far towards any one corner of that triumvirate /images/graemlins/wink.gif

anyway, thanks again...
-tpir

[Mike Gallo]

You should fold here given the information that you have given.

[Bob T.]

maybe i am afraid of being constantly surrounded by 2+2-ers on-line.

Talk about seeing monsters under the bed...... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RydenStoompala]

Funny how the real world and what you read in books are so different. I believe you made a good decision becasue I personally would not check raise someone in a 2-4 game with much shy of top pair or even trips. I would expect you to call me all the way to the river hoping to draw a set becasue that's what often happens in small games. I am writing this right after watching someone call three raises pre-flop with 4-7 suited and river my AA with a straight. I did not call the last bet because I knew what this mouth-breather had done, but two other people did call him and the one guy next to me was a good player. I defer to Sklansky's fundamental theory of poker. You made the right decision based upon the best way to play your opponent's hand.

[MrBlini]

[ QUOTE ]
so has anyone ever actually made this fold on the flop after a C/R?

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I fold here. I know what I need to know.

If there's a big draw, I try to think about whether the C/R could be to jam the pot. There's no big draw and certainly no reason to jam, so you don't have to worry about that possibility. Looks like MP picked up a pretty big hand and is trying to get as many bets in as possible on the flop and/or determine if you have AK, AA, or KK.