Still have a lot to learn : QTs x 2

[GuyOnTilt]

Both these hands took place at a 15/30 table online.

Hand 1:

This is my 2nd hand at the table, and I've only played with 2 of these players before. Both are loose/aggressive preflop, and loose/passive postflop. I'm in the SB and am dealt Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It's folded to an MP open-limper, Button limps, I complete. BB (one of the knowns) raises, we all call. 4 to the flop for 8 SB's.

Flop comes: A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet to limit the field. BB raises as planned and the others fold. I 3-bet, BB calls. Headsup for 7 BB's.

Turn comes: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif[A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif]

I bet, BB calls.

River comes: 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[7 /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif]

I don't think he's laying down any Ace or KK, so I check hoping to get it checked through. He bets, I fold.

Hand 2:

Two hands later, I'm in the CO with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Two folds to an EMP open-limper, MP1 (the other known) limps, MP2 limps. One fold, and I raise. BB calls, and limpers call. 5 to the flop for 10 SB's.

Flop comes: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets, EMP calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds. Bleh. I think about it and hate all of my options, so I arbitrarily choose to 3-bet, bet the turn, and check the river. BB semi-cold-calls, EMP folds, MP1 calls. 3 to the turn for 10 BB's.

Turn comes: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif[Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif]

Both check and I bet. BB check-raises, and MP1 3-bets. Bleh again. I muck.

So tell me where I screwed up and why. I'm not comfortable with how I played either of these hands, and I felt pretty crappy about both. Results to follow.

Any and all comments are appreciated.

GoT

[onegymrat]

Hey Guy,

How's the "riveredagain" site doing?

Hand 1: I don't see how I could have done it different.

Hand 2: Why raise the flop? You have a weak flush-draw holding. I would call hoping for limpers. Fold if the table is tough.

Turn is interesting. Perhaps you've been thinking that you've been getting too many bad beats. This is an easy call or raise for me. You are the preflop raiser, and it seems to me they are making a move to muscle you out. I'm thinking if they have Q-K or Q-A, you would have faced a pf raise. The probable hands that BB holds is Q-10 or Q-9. If they've filled up, you still have two outs /images/graemlins/confused.gif. MP probably has J-10. If BB has 4-4 or 9-9, so be it. That's the price for playing Q-10. Either way, I think this warrants a call/raise. Tell me a happy ending.

[gonores]

Hand 1

I don't like the river fold. I'd check-call and hope to see KQ with the king of spades or something like that, maybe JJ.

Hand 2

You have the odds to call and pray for the board to pair here.

I didn't like either laydown

[astroglide]

hand 1: perfect

hand 2: qts is not good enough to raise here, i would have to have qjs. i would have cold called the flop.

[Brian]

Hi Gonores,

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2

You have the odds to call and pray for the board to pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming that the check-raiser just calls the 3 bet, and doesn't cap it himself, Guy is getting 17:2, or 8.5:1 on his call. However, he is drawing to a *split* pot, so his odds are actually cut in half, so he's getting more 4:1 on his call to chase a 6-outer, which needs 7:1. This alone means that the call is not worthwhile assuming he is against a better Queen. Add in the fact that 99 or 44 are likely holdings for his opponents, and he doesn't have very many outs to a split pot at all.

I am not saying he should fold his hand, although I probably would, but in order to continue, he must think he has the best hand.

-Brian

[Diplomat]

I'm not sure what you are upset about. Hand 1 was played well, and hand 2 was not that bad either. I think the pre-flop raise in hand 2 was borderline, I'd like a caller or two more...but I like the raise because it might buy you the all-important button. Shrug. I got nothin'.

-Diplomat

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that the check-raiser just calls the 3 bet, and doesn't cap it himself, Guy is getting 17:2, or 8.5:1 on his call. However, he is drawing to a *split* pot, so his odds are actually cut in half, so he's getting more 4:1 on his call to chase a 6-outer, which needs 7:1. This alone means that the call is not worthwhile assuming he is against a better Queen. Add in the fact that 99 or 44 are likely holdings for his opponents, and he doesn't have very many outs to a split pot at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget 3 outs to a T for the pot to be all his.

[elysium]

hi guy
hand 1) guy, you're beaten but this is a terrible fold. you have more than enough pot odds to make this call. but even if you knew somehow that you're trailing, you should still call.

the way you played your hand tells your opponent that you have something. you don't know, however, at a level of certainty above pot odds that you're beaten, but o.k......let's say you know that. you should still call to keep your opponents from taking shots at you in later hands. everyone knows you have QT, so call and muck face down.

hand 2) well, the 3-bet is great but when the board pairs.....you know that raise for the free-card was made to protect you against a check-bluff in case the board paired. a Q or any other pair kicks you out of this thing 2 cold; so the reraise for the free-card deteriorates into an insurance reraise that you fail to utilize. you bet into the on that board? why you.

[GuyOnTilt]

Don't forget 3 outs to a T for the pot to be all his.

I think the 6 outs that Brian mentioned included my T outs. Since there aren't enough Q's in the deck for both of my opponents to be raising the turn with trips, I think it's a good assumption that one of them has a set. In that case, I have 3 outs to split, and 3 outs to win. If both have sets, then I have 4 outs to win and no outs to split, which is only slightly worse. Either way, I don't have the odds to call 2 bets on the turn drawing to 4.5 or 4 outs. If I think there's a chance I'm still ahead, then I can call, but I think it's pretty obvious that I'm behind here against all but the most overaggressive opponents.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

I considered this. I kind of made up my mind on the flop to bet the turn and check through the river. If the turn had come with some blank, I might've changed my mind and checked the turn and called a river bet, but when my hand improved, I bet. It'd be pretty tough for me to check through the turn with trip queens on an uncoordinated board, and I think that if I had posted this hand and checked through I would've been berated for doing so. It is a very legitimate play though, IMO.

If I had, I would've been faced with 2 bets cold on the river, and then what? Assuming the river is a blank, I guess I call 2 bets cold, and then call an impending 3-bet? That still makes for a very bleh hand...

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

i would have cold called the flop.

In what ways in that a superior option to 3-betting?

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

Hand 1:

Calling for table image purposes might've been the right thing to do. I've heard some say when the river counterfeits your 2 pair, you should bet anyways out of position (I think it was Clarkmeister a few months back). Given that I can change tables with ease if my image isn't what I want it to be online, I think mucking was probably the best play, but I don't really know...this hand just sucked.

Hand 2:

And speaking of hands that sucked...

I don't have too much to say about this one, except the usual "bleh." I don't think I have the odds to call the turn at all, and the PF play is questionable, yes, but I know that and it's a play that I only make occassionally. I'm more concerned about the flop/turn/river combo. Elysium suggested 3-bet/check/call. I went with 3-bet/bet/check. Someone else said to cold-call/call/call, which I think is the worst option presented so far. I don't really know...I just felt like a complete newb on this hand, and it sucked. That's all I know.

After I mucked, the BB capped and MP1 called. The river was my one of my 4 outs: the case Q. BB bet, and the MP1 player folded after almost timing out. So 99 for the BB and 44 for MP1. I gave myself a pat on the back for mucking the turn, and then came here to post.

GoT

[NLfool]

#1 is fine. #2 is one hell of a laydown and I give you credit for it. If I look objectively I'd say you should also fold but in the heat of the moment especially if I'm down for the night I call it no hesitation. What a hand though QQ94 and there are trips and 2 flopped sets. And of course it just really hurts to see your case 4 come. Well similar thing happened to me at Prima folded KQd UTG in the $10/20 NL and of course flopped the nut straight and 2 guys putting in $500 a piece in the pot. My new years resolution is to stop being so tight.