The Five Factor Trait Model ---> poker

[Eihli]

I need a better way to categorize online poker players. I need a short, efficient way to take notes on people and be able to predict their future play based on those notes. The standard loose-aggressive, tight-passive, etc, is just too broad to be able to have a good enough idea on how they play. So, what categories of personalities do I need to use to be able to make a good judgement on how someone plays? Lately I've just been righting down the play that they made that strikes me as out of the ordinary, but this takes up a lot of room in their notes and it doesn't give me a general idea of how they play, it just tells me how they play in that situation.

So anyway, what is a compact list of traits that can describe anyones poker personality? Or is there some other better way to categorize people?

1. aggressive/passive
2. tight/loose
3. tricky/straightforward?
4. strong/weak?

anything else?

[Lawrence Ng]

Hey there Eihli,

I would also add aggressive preflop, passive post flop, aggressive post flop, check-caller, early limps-a-lot, plays-too-many-hands, just to narrow it down a bit more to help you understand your table opponents better.

There's probably more, but I hope this helps.

Lawrence

[Al Schoonmaker]

If you look in my book, you'll see that you can describe a player fairly easily. For example, "5-7, 7-5 OPB" means normal on tight-loose pre-flop, but chases post-flop, aggressive pre-flop, but average on aggression post-flop, overprotects blinds.
Of course, you can add lots of words to the numbers, but the numbers give the overall picture quickly.
People have been using the tight-loose, passive-aggresive dimensions forever. All I've done is provide an organized way to record the data, plus directions for adjusting to various kinds of players.
Why reinvent the wheel?
Al

[CrisBrown]

Hi Al,

Thank you for an excellent book. In particular, the "How to play against [type]" sections are essential reading for any serious player. I can't count how many times I've answered the "How do I play at a loose table?" question, and the substance of my answer is essentially straight out of your book.

As for player types, though, I find the animal characters from Phil Hellmuth's PLAY POKER LIKE THE PROS to be easier to remember during the heat of play. They're essentially the same styles, though, so it's easy to translate one to the other:

Loose-Aggressive ... Maniac ... Jackal
Loose-Passive ... Calling Station ... Elephant
Tight-Passive ... Rock ... Mouse
Tight-Aggressive ... Stone Killer ... Lion

Phil adds a fifth character -- the Eagle -- who sees the entire table and swoops down to pick up chips whenever he wants, but he adds that there are probably fewer than a dozen such players in the world. Still, there are times when a player gets into "the zone" and makes not only the right but the best decision at every opportunity ... and while that's happening, that player is an Eagle.

BTW, the first section of Phil's book gives some excellent hand-reading exercises where the reader is asked to read the same play according from different types of players, trying to determine not only what cards that player holds, and how he will play those cards as the hand develops. I found this was an excellent complement to the "How to play against" sections in your book.

Again, thanks for the excellent book, and also for your participation here. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

[Al Schoonmaker]

Cris,
Thanks for the kind words. I have often wished that I had a visual mind. Pictures are so much easier to remember than words. Alas, I am strictly a word person.
Regards,
Al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I haven't acquired Phil's book yet, but those descriptions are kinda cool. Alas, they don't really say anything Al hasn't already said, but the pictures might be helpful to some. I already use his system as-is, so they aren't very helpful to me. Still, it's an interesting way to remember, I think the animals were pretty well chosen.

al

[CrisBrown]

Hi Al,

Even cooler are the hand-reading exercises where there's a diagram with a Jackal holding cards to your right and an Elephant to your left (or whatever). Plus he chose strong, alliterative names for his fictitious players: Jerry the Jackal, Ed the Elephant, Lisa the Lion, Manny the Mouse, or whatever.

The cumulative effect is that you're aware of the players' styles at every point in the reading exercises. At no time are you trying to read "average player," "moron," etc. And in the few instances where he presents you with an Unknown, it's Unknown-ness is the central focus of the exercise (as by then you're getting pretty good at reading the knowns).

If there were one poker book I wish I could buy, it would a book of player- and hand-reading exercises, much in the way there are Go and Chess texts which consist solely of board-reading exercises. I think player- and hand-reading are the most important skills in tournament poker, because they allow you to play marginal hands profitably. Without them, you're limited to playing premium hands or monster flops, and those don't come along often enough to for you to be a consistent winner in tournament play.

Cris

[Kenshin]

Chris, I really, really, like your book idea. I know of no comparable book in the poker literature to one of hand/player reading excercises. Perhaps the masterminds behind 2+2 will eventually fill this void.

Kenshin

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Chris:

The Hellmuth Animal Types are not original. In The Secret to Winning Big In Tournament Poker by Ken Buntjer, we are presented with the donkey, sheep, owl, jackass, lion, chamelon, and the tournament expert, none other than the alligator. On my 1-to-10 review scale, with 10 being the best, this book got a 1. I also gave the hold 'em material in Hellmuth's book a 1, while the rest of it got a 6. So even though you might enjoy reading it, I don't think you'll take his hold 'em advice to the bank.

By the way, and I found this somewhat peculiar, but the Hellmuth Animal types only appear in the hold 'em section of his book. Does this mean that only real people play the other games?

Best wishes,
Mason

[William]

Mason,

Are your reviews of other poker books available somewhere?

It would be a real pleasure to know the opinion of one of the few persons that really understands the game.

Thanks and best wishes to you,
William

[Mike]

Try under the Books/Software forum towards the bottom, you may have to seach a little, but may find it worth your time.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi William:

My reviews are published as an appendix in my book Gambling Theory and Other Topics. However, the latest version was released in 1999 and since then I have read more books and written more reviews. I plan to post all of these more recent reviews in the near future on our Books/Software forum. So keep an eye out for it.

Best wishes,
Mason

[CrisBrown]

Mason,

I don't like his hold'em material either, but I do think his player types and especially his hand-reading exercises based upon those player types are worthwhile reading.

C.f.: I don't like the hand-reading sections in the 2+2 books, as they take for granted that your opponents are tight-aggressive, and that just isn't realistic.

If Hellmuth's isn't the best possible treatment of hand-reading -- and it isn't -- it is at least better than the rest of what's out there.

BTW, both the fact that another writer proposed some set of animal types, and the fact that you gave the other writer a 1-of-10 review, are irrelevant to whether Hellmuth's animal types are useful in reading opponents.

Cris