let's play fold, call, or raise! 20-40 quiz

[mike l.]

i have Ah6h in an absurdly good 20-40 game. i limp utg+2 and an awful player limps in the cutoff. another losing player calls in the sb. she is loose and can be aggressive sporadically. the bb checks. 4 of us.

the flop is AQ3 all spades. sb bets, bb folds, i raise, cutoff cold calls, sb 3 bets, i call, cutoff calls.

the turn is 2h. sb bets. so what's my play?? call, fold, or raise? and how close is it?

[elysium]

hi mike
you should fold this on the flop mike.....now. well, your this deep into it, so you're reading both opponents as being on a draw of some kind......whew, i don't know. doesn't look like draws to me mike. looks like AJ and a small flush.

[andyfox]

"let's play fold, call, or raise!"

Aren't we always doing that?

Of course I raise pre-flop, but that's another story.

I fold. Even if she's aggressively pushing a draw, and the cold-caller is passive pursuing a draw, there are just too many bad things that can happen, if they haven't already.

Even if you tell me you folded and your hand would have been good, I still play fold. If indeed the game is absurdly good, I'll wait for a better situation.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I ditch it. You're probably against a flush, or at least a flush draw. In addition, there are a lot of other hands that beat you that you might wind up getting shown. Wait to fight in a better spot.

al

[skp]

Fold but your description of the players in question may require you to call.

Elysium's suggestion to fold on the flop is good advice. At least, it should be strongly considered. My preference on this flop is not to raise...I see it as a "fold or call" situation. I would call with a view to raising on the turn and shutting it down on the river. This line of play has several advantages over the flop raise play:

1. You mimic a real big hand which might therefore even see the sb or someone behind you who also calls the flop lay down a bigger ace;

2. If the turn is a spade, you will be happy that you didn't raise the flop even if you were to have been in the lead at that time Exception: if the sb chceks on teh turn when the spade comes, no you can go ahead and bet it and represent the flush yourself. Obviously, this is a little dangerous if someone else behind you also called the flop;

3. There is little need to protect your hand on the flop with a raise if you happen to be in the lead. Firstly, there are only 4 players in the hand and one has already bet. If you call, the other two guys are not likely to call with gutshots, middle pair etc unless they also have a Spade draw. If they have a spade draw that they like, they will not fold to a flop raise anyway. And even if they fold, it's quite possible that the sb is on a spade draw which means that getting rid of the other spade draws is of little consequence to you. Yada yada yada.

[Diplomat]

Hi Mike,

there is this player I know. I don't know her name. She's about 60, maybe early fifties. She's a loosing player. She sounds like the small blind.

Anyway, I've been in almost the exact same situation as you describe with her. And what I can never figure out is if she has K /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif or A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. All I know is that she would have played a flopped flush differently.

The cutoff has either flopped a big draw, has flopped the nuts, or is paying off like a slot machine.

So I think you are ahead. I think a raise is reasonable. I'd probably fold if either player three-bets.

-Diplomat

[mike l.]

"All I know is that she would have played a flopped flush differently."

see this lady in the sb might play a small flopped flush exactly as she played this hand.

i folded the turn feeling really unhappy w/ my kicker and really good about my ability to lay down top pair under the pressure she was putting on me.

of course the river 7h went check-check and my stomach sank as she flipped up KsQd and cutoff took it down with his Axo. sigh.. yep my kicker wouldve played...

[GuyOnTilt]

cutoff took it down with his A3o. sigh.. yep my kicker wouldve played...

A3o flopped 2 pair. I'm assuming it was a typo, but maybe you misread the board during the hand itself and 2-pair won.

I agree with elysium that you should consider folding the flop. I wouldn't raise either. I think calling and folding are your two best options, with folding being the best. IF your hand is best, your reverse implied odds suck. And there's a good chance you're beat already and drawing dead. After you called the 3-bet, I don't see why you folded the turn when a very good card for you appeared. Fold the flop to the first bet, and if not, definitely to the 3-bet.

GoT

[mike l.]

"maybe you misread the board during the hand itself and 2-pair won."

no. i save all my dumb mistakes for posting on here. he had some crap ace worse than mine.

i peeled on the flop after she 3 bet because the pot was getting someteen to one and i thought maybe i could grab hold of aces up or trips.

gold star to the poster who said call the flop and raise the turn. not sure why i didnt think of that play. i guess i was hoping a flop raise would get cutoff off weak middle card spade. also not sure what wouldve been so wrong with call, call, call. or call, call, check. or call all streets and bet if checked to. not sure why that didnt occur to me. i guess i wasnt really worried until she made it 3 bets on the flop and by then it was too late to commit to any of those cozier, brain dead options.

[andyfox]

"of course the river 7h went check-check and my stomach sank as she flipped up KsQd and cutoff took it down with his Axo. sigh.. yep my kicker wouldve played... "

Biggest mistake of the hand. So what? You made the right decision for the right reason. If this is such a great game, you'll have plenty of other situations where it's easier to see if you're the favorite. Guys who never lay down the best hand go broke.