How much would you pay?

You're in the blind, either one, playing $40-80, and you chop with the guy in the other blind. I'm on the button. During the shuffle, I offer the blinds a deal. "If everyone folds, I will fold without looking at my cards if you each give me five bucks."


Would you take it? If not, how much would you pay? $4? $3? If you would accept the offer, then what's the max you would have paid? $6? $10?


This actually happened. I made that offer, and later got to thinking that if the situation were reversed, I'd pay the $5, meaning I had apparently stumbled upon a number that was fair for all involved. A zero-gain, fluxuation-lowering deal, like running the cards twice in no-limit.


Then, the way it went down was just too funny. They declined the offer, well, not really declined, as there just wasn't enough time to really ponder it. Then everyone folded, and I raised without looking at my cards, and they both saw that I hadn't looked, it was that blatant, and they both folded.


Tommy

i would pay you about 500.00 to take the afternoon off...well ok 700.00....A GRAND!... hell no i'll just take the afternoon off myself...

with 10-20 blinds


it may be a deal. i may go for it. in fact, if i was in BB id be more inclined. id be saving $15. very relative to the surrender rule of blackjack. for the blinds, if theyre over the price theyre posting, ini the long run, could be a money maker.


but one question...do i get to look at my cards before my answer. if i do, then hell yes. if i dont, well it still a good deal.


b

Real smart players in the blinds, huh? Had they looked at their cards when you offered them the deal?


I simply can't understand why they would fold knowing that you have not yet looked at your cards and also knowing that you know that they know you are raising blind. The bb should 3 bet liberally and probably call with any two. A 3 bet by the sb may give him even more leverage than a 3 bet by the bb as he would know that you know that he had the bb to worry about despite your blind preflop raise.


Position is nearly everything in hold 'em but in this situation, preflop strength may go a long way in neutralizing the positional disadvantage...and perhaps the psychological disadvantage...I mean, these guys are asking to be brutalized.

I agree. If I was the BB I would have glance at my cards then Three Bet - and then Bet the flop no matter what. And if T.A. raises, three bet again. Start playing like its no-limit poker, get your whole stack in.


Wimps give me the dry heaves.


NO deals when I play. Go ahead and Raise - I'm ready to rumble.


-Zeno, From Greenland.

"Had they looked at their cards when you offered them the deal?"


No. There really wasn't time for a deal to be made, that's one of the reasons I felt safe in being silly. Right when I was done making terms, they had their cards and looked and all deals off.


"I simply can't understand why they would fold knowing that you have not yet

looked at your cards and also knowing that you know that they know you are raising blind."


I can. They had bad hands.


"The bb should 3 bet liberally ..."


Does liberally mean more than half the time? Wouldn't that mean voluntarily putting in two bets, out of position, with a hand that rates to NOT be the favorite?


"and probably call with any two."


Hmmm. I don't think so.


"Position is nearly everything in hold 'em but in this situation, preflop strength may go a long way in neutralizing the positional disadvantage..."


Long enough to play every hand, random against random, out of position?


Tommy

"If I was the BB I would have glance at my cards then Three Bet - and then Bet the flop no matter what."


Well in that case I'd be looking at my cards first. (But I still think I'd have the best of it even if I didn't look and you reraised and bet the flop dark. Just not enough the best to make it worth the fluctuation and trauma.)


Tommy

How bad can their cards be when they are getting 3:1 against a random hand? I'll take 3:1 odds out of the bb with any two cards against a button who I know has raised blind. Obviously, how well the button plays after the flop is a factor. If they folded against you for that reason, I wouldn't blame them one bit.


As for 3 betting out of the bb, I don't necessarily have to have the better hand to make the play. The very fact that the button is raising blind and I have seen my cards (and he knows this) gives me leverage to offset the positional disadvantage. So, I would 3 bet liberally...


The situation is different if the button were to do this every time. Obviously, I can't go around 3 betting liberally when that happens because then, we truly have a random hand vs. random hand match up with a positional disadvantage but I would still be calling liberally and still be 3 betting a lot more than usual.

Folding a 4.5-1 call against a random hand? Where is this game? Most bad 40-80 players I have seen are too loose, not too tight from the blinds. This is a no-brainer call by the BB with any 2 cards (including 27o) and quite easy to play post-flop.

"How bad can their cards be when they are getting 3:1 against a random hand? I'll take 3:1 odds out of the bb with any two cards against a button who I know has raised blind."


I guess we just disagree. The 3:1 figure only has meaning if the betting stops and the hands are shown down, right? I don't think 3:1 at the outset is enough to overcome the positional disadvantage.


"The situation is different if the button were to do this every time. Obviously, I can't go around 3 betting liberally when that happens because then, we truly have a random hand vs. random hand match up with a positional disadvantage ..."


I don't see how changing the condition from "every time" to "just this one time" changes it to a "truly" random hand vs random hand situation.


I think it comes to down to who is doing what, and why, as usual. I could see giving a lot of action to some players if they dark-raised and giving little to others.


Tommy

"I guess we just disagree. The 3:1 figure only has meaning if the betting stops and the hands are shown down, right? I don't think 3:1 at the outset is enough to overcome the positional disadvantage."


Agreed. But the difference is that I know you are raising based just on position. When I call or 3 bet, you don't know if I am doing so solely because you raised blind or whether I really have a hand worth a call or a 3 bet as the case may be.


"I don't see how changing the condition from "every time" to "just this one time" changes it to a "truly" random hand vs random hand situation."


If the guy is raising blind every time and I am 3 betting every time, he will know that I am 3 betting with random cards just as he is raising with random cards. In the "one time" only situation, he raises blind, I look at my cards and make it 3 bets, he can't assume that I may be 3 betting with random cards.


By analogy, let's assume that you are playing a headsup game: In that situation, there are players who when on the button will raise preflop a very high percentage of the time. He may not be raising randomly but some guys come pretty damn close to that. Now, you can defend this by 3 betting more than usual but your optimal defense does not encompass 3 betting every time as then he will know that you are doing it randomly. Since you suffer positionally the rest of the way, you can't 3 bet every time. But if he is raising so frequently, you also cannot fold too often. You have to severely adjust your calling requirements. Hence, while you are not raising liberally, you are at least calling liberally.


"I think it comes to down to who is doing what, and why, as usual. I could see giving a lot of action to some players if they dark-raised and giving little to others."


Agreed. All of what I have opined in this thread is premised on the "all other things being equal" assumption.

Good post skp. I agree with everything.


Interesting, I asked my buddy Alex what he'd do in the big blind and right away he said he'd reraise and bet the flop. I read his mind well and asked, "Are you assuming that the button knows that you know that he raised dark?"


Alex said no. He was assuming that the button did not know if the big blind knew the button's bet was dark. I asked, "What if the button knows that you know that he raised dark? Would you ever fold?" Alex said that's a whole nother story (one we never clarified, and I think we've been posting under the second condition, right?)


He said he would fold sometimes. I didn't push for a frequency, but I'm guessing it's near half the time, same as I would.


The main thing that makes the dark-raise on the button a questionable play is if its done against players who reraise at an optimum frequency. But there is a defense, even for that, and I've done it more times than I should admit. Raise on the button, one of the blinds makes it three bets and the other is out, and I fold for one more bet in position. This is exceedingly rare, I've done it maybe ten times lifetime. Ideally it's only done against players who do not reraise nearly often enough, sorta like the guys I did the recent blind raise against who folded.


Tommy