Taking a beating

[chucklhead]

Howdy,
I am consistantly losing at $1/$2 Planet poker and thought I would post a couple hands to cool down.

I have Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the big blind. I have been a folding machine for 2 days getting an incredibly bad run of cards. Loose, but winning player (up over $100 in two hours) calls in early position. Middle position (decent but losing this session) raises, I call. Loose player calls.

Flop 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, loose guy checks, middle bets, we both call.

Turn [3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, loose guy bets(capable of bluffs and semi-bluffs), middle calls, I raise, loose guy calls middle folds.

River: [3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, loose guy raises, I reraise, he caps, I call.

He turns over A /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Misplayed everywhere?
As always, comments greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
Chucklehead

[MrBlini]

Preflop and the flop look fine to me. It's not a strong hand, but it should be playable, especially if MP might be trying to isolate EP. Calling seems OK.

I like your aggressive turn play with a big draw. You managed to get a lot of bets in the pot on the turn, drop a player, and disguise your hand. Good!

I might put on the brakes when reraised on the river, but hey, it's the second nut flush against a loose, aggressive player. I think there might be value in 3-betting if he's likely to have made a non-nut flush and bet it the same way. Yeah, I'm probably 3-betting this guy.

You're not likely to chase a player like this off the nut flush draw even if you could somehow make the drawing odds wrong. Tough one.

[ramjam]

Just bad luck that your second nut flush ran into the nut flush - and it's difficult to give a LAP credit for the nuts.

I think I might have led out on the flop or the turn (but would not have check-raised the turn as a likely underdog). But however you might have varied the play: (i)the end result would always have been the same and (ii) your pre-flop call was justified, you were right to see it through to the river, and you were right to make it three-bets when you hit your hand.

[Brian]

Hi Chucklhead,

I would suggest that most newer players fold this hand in the BB to a raise. It can get you into a lot of trouble, although I would expect pair vs pair kicker problems to happen much more often than Flush vs Flush. In a 4 way pot, you've got the odds to play for your Flush/Straight possibilities, but it's close in a 3 way. I do not think that even an expert player loses that much by folding here.

That being said, you played the hand very well. The check-raise on the Turn hopefully clears up your Queen outs (in case the MP player has KQ or AQ), although without an overcard I wouldn't recommend it. Even though you have 15 Straight and Flush outs, and are thus 2:1 to improve by the River, and therefore are getting "value" out of your raise if both players call, if either of them has a set or two pair, you have less outs, thus making the raise -EV. Also, you may be re-raised.

-Brian

[TazQ]

I agree with Brian, fold it preflop until you get a lot of experience under your belt.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Chucklhead:

These hands happen. They are just part of the game.

Your reraise on the end is questionable since the pot was raised before the flop it's a little more likely you are against the nuts and that will be expensive (as you found out).

Best wishes,
Mason

[SevenStuda]

Your poor play on this hand came before the river. You should have gone for bonus bets on the flop and turn. Raise, Raise, Raise! No cheap cards!

[Brian]

Hi sevenstuda,

No cheap cards? Considering *he* is the one drawing, I think it is his *opponents* that should be worried about giving cheap cards, not him. Bonus bets on the Flop? All he has is a Flush draw on the Flop, and his opponents have indicated strength before the Flop. WHy should he try to jam this pot 3 way on the Flop? He did go for "bonus bets" on the Turn, though.

-Brian

[chucklhead]

Thanks all and of course the moderator,
Do to the play of the loose player, I don't put him on the possible nut flush until he caps it. He has shown down hands like J8o, and just about any two suited. However, when he shows down he wins a large percent of the hands. After several hours of play with this person, I think that he is very strong post flop. I also feel like he can almost see my cards, which says I must not be varying my play enough.

Thanks again,
Chucklehead

[Eihli]

Seven, I think you are full of [censored].

[BottlesOf]

Would anyone say bet the flop? I think I'd do that.