TT UTG+1 PP 3/6 sanity check

[BigEndian]

Thoughts on this hand? Table is typical 3/6. Not very tight, about 35% seeing the flop, and some tricky plays about once an orbit or so.

Party Poker 3/6 (10 handed)
BigEndian has T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is EP2

EP1 limps, BigEndian raises, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB folds, UTG folds, EP1 calls

Flop(7 1/3 SB): 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP1 checks, BigEndian bets, MP2 calls, EP1 raises, BigEndian 3-bets, MP2 calls, EP1 calls

Turn(8 1/6 BB): A/images/graemlins/spade.gif

EP1 bets, BigEndian's action?


- Jim

[rkiray]

I wouln't raise TT after a limper, and I'd only open raise UTG+1 in a tight game.

I'd fold the turn.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'm saying this to everybody. You need to give more info on your opponent. I'm starting to feel like a broken record here, but nobody seems to be listening, so I'll just keep saying it until people start giving opponent information in their hand posts.

What are his PF limping stardards from EP? What are his tendencies postflop? Does he bet into a raiser with a draw and check-raise with a made hand? Visa-versa? Does he have a propensity to semi-bluff or bluff? Is he capable of continueing these bluffs on the river unimproved? Does he make feel-bets planning to fold to raises? Is he passive postflop, or aggressive? Would he fold to a turn raise without an ace or flush/flush-draw? Is he tricky postflop?I'm starting to think a lot of posters here don't include this info because they don't know. You should. Start paying attention at the tables. If you don't know the answers to the above questions, then you're either playing too many tables at once, or you're not playing good poker. (BTW, I think the former is an indication of the latter.)

If you want to move up in limits (and I think most of us do), then you need to get beyond ABC poker. Learn to play the game well, not robotically. Playing 3 tables at once may increase your hourly rate, but it's not going to make you a good player.

This isn't aimed at you specifically, Endian, but at the forum as a whole.

Alright, back to the hand. Since I've been playing a lot of online poker in the last few months, I've become a big believer in online reads. In headsup pots, I think psychology plays a big factor. So...

Call the turn, and call it pretty quickly. Act as if you're going to call down. If he's trying to push you off a better hand with something like 66 or 55 or 98s, then you want him to check the river thinking you're determined to call down regardless of the ace and 3-flush. In actuality, you have to fold the river unimproved unless this opponent has shown a lot of bluff/semi-bluffing in the past and will continue the bluff on the river.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd fold the turn.

He has a draw to the 4rd nut flush. Including his set, that's an 11-out hand. Either you missed it, or you don't think it's a good enough draw. He's getting more than enough overlay with his pot odds to account for the times when neither of those draws are live, which won't be very often since a flush will usually go for a c/r on the turn here.

GoT

[BottlesOf]

You don't ever raise TT after a limper, or you don't raise TT after an EP limper, or you don't raise TT after an ep limper, from ep?

[BottlesOf]

GOT-

Sometimes people post hands when they are new to a table. Also, I think you need to be at a table with someone for a long time to make generalizations about their play. If I see someone bet a draw once, I don't know how much that says about a player's tendencies, or if someone bets 99 on a board with a J, I don't know if I can say that player is necessarily aggressive, or that he will commonly bet without top pair.

I think hand questions can be answered without supplying player information, although clearly not as well.

[BigEndian]

I didn't have a specific read on the player. One of the few times I'm playing multiple tables.

I folded. I felt there was a good enough chance that I was drawing dead to a player on a flush draw who check-raised a full field of bettors.

I'm definitely not calling down banking on improving to the fourth nut flush with one card to come. If someone thinks that's a long-term profitable play, I'd love to hear why.

If I don't believe playing the flush draw is profitable, I see this as an easy fold.

- Groove

[rkiray]

I missed the flush draw.

BTW, does the describe opponents apply to me also?

[elindauer]

This is too harsh, for so many reasons. First of all, sometimse you don't have a read because you haven't been playing long. Second, most games have quite a bit of turnover, so figuring out every last detail of a guy's game may not be so simple.

Finally, and most importantly, you suggest that this is necessary to move "beyond ABC poker". Well, you may be ready to make that leap, but perhaps not everyone else is. You have to understand the basics before you can move beyond them, and the "basics", ie how you should play without specific player reads, are actually incredibly complex. How can we learn the basics if we don't talk about them?

This is a small stakes forum, after all.

[BigEndian]

You have to take Guy with a grain of salt sometimes. Try not to take his comments too personally, he can't help being curt. It comes from early and fast success.

At any rate, I posted the hand because I found it interesting and wanted to see if my thoughts were off the wall. If no one else finds it that way, or thinks there isn't enough information, feel free to not respond to it. No skin off my back.

- Jim