So long Andy Petitte....Hello mediocrity

[Mike Gallo]

To all the Yankee fans, ( I do not like the Yankees)

Have the wheels started to fall off of the train? Will not resigning Petitte have a ripple down effect.

Does Boss Steinbrenner through his entire check book at Guerrero to make up for this debacle?

I hear the footsteps of the Red Sox catching up to the Yankees..does anyone else here this?

Down with the evil empire.

[Zeno]

Leaks can be plugged with money and George has gold bars stacked in his basement. There is plently of time to make moves, now and into the season. You can count on the Yankees to be in the thick of things next year.

-Zeno

[Porcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
Leaks can be plugged with money and George has gold bars stacked in his basement. There is plently of time to make moves, now and into the season. You can count on the Yankees to be in the thick of things next year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope so, but I hate that Andy is gone. I really think with a little effort and not a crazy amount of cash, he could still be a Yankee. I think George is undervaluing current players and overvaluing players the Yankees could pursue.

Roll Evil Empire!

[andyfox]

The footsteps have been there for years. The Red Sox have finished second to the Yankees in the division for 6 years running now.

Supposedly the Yankees will have Kevin Brown shortly. With Brown, Vasquez and Mussina, they have 3 quality starters. They should be able to get two decent starters among Contreras, Wells, and Lieber. If they add Sheffield or Guerrero, their lineup will be that much better. With Gordon and Quantrill their middle relief should be much better than last year.

Don't count the evil empire out just yet.

[andyfox]

Supposedly Steinbrenner offered $8,000,000 than the Astros, but Pettitte chose to be closer to home.

What I liked about Pettitte is what Bill James said about Don Mattingly: 100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit.

[andyfox]

In the five years Roger Clemens was with the Yankees, he went 77-36 and Pettitte was 82-43.

Last year they combined for 38 wins.

Pretty tough to replace.

[Mike Gallo]

What I liked about Pettitte is what Bill James said about Don Mattingly: 100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit.

You just gave the reason why the Yankees and their fans will miss Pettite.

[Mike Gallo]

Supposedly the Yankees will have Kevin Brown shortly.

When did Kevin Brown last play an entire season without missing time due to injury?

[Mike Gallo]

Last year they combined for 38 wins.

Thats more that 25% of the Yankees total wins. Don't forget, whenever the Yankees needed a win, what started did they hand the ball to?

Mr Andy Petitte.

[hetron]

The name of the game is pitching. As long as you have at least average hitting, you can win with good pitching. Look at what happened to the Yankees in the 80's? They had great hitters (Winfield, Rickey Henderson, Don Mattingly) but for the most part mediocre pitching (remember the Rasmussens, the Whitsons, etc.) and spent most of the decade mired in mediocrity.

When you go from a starting rotation of: Mussina, Petitte, Clemens, Wells, Contreras to Mussina, Vazquez (admittedly a good young arm, but has never pitched under any sort of pressure and still has yet to make the jump from good to great), to two over-the-hill, injury prone pitchers not even signed yet by the Yankees for next year, and throw in Contreras (God knows how old he really is), you really have a lot more questions than answers. If things don't break right for the Yanks pitching wise, it will be very tough for them to get back to the World Series next year.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

This is the same reason why they were never the same after Paul O'Neill and Tino Martinez left. For all the credit Torre got, those two were the real clubhouse leaders.

[andyfox]

32 starts, 211 innings last year, compared to 33 and 208 for Pettitte.

[andyfox]

Big change, no doubt. See my However post. All I'm saying is don't count them out quite yet.

I'm sure the Red Sox will be favored to win the division.

[andyfox]

Indeed. He was 5-7 and ended up 21-8; the game he lost was a complete game 5-hitter, 2-1. He also didn't win a game where he had a 1-hit shutout for 8 innings and they brought in Rivera in the 9th and he let it get away. Pettitte then won 3 more games in the post-season, the all-important game twos after the Yankees had lost game one. He went out leading by two runs in another; and gave up just one earned run in 7 innings in the World Series finale.

He was extraordinarily tough last year, no doubt. Great strike-out/walk ratio, much improved over his early years. 34-13 over the last two years.

[andyfox]

As a Yankee fan, I loved those two guys, but I'm not so sure they haven't been "the same" since they left. They were both there when they blew game 7 agasint the D-backs with some shoddy 9th inning fielding. They've won over 100 games each of the last two years. Boone makes contact with the based loaded in the 11th inning of game 4 and they take a 3-1 lead in this year's Series.

The Braves will be without Maddux and Glavine and Millwood and Sheffield and Javy this year. Somehow I think they'll still be pretty good.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The bunt play in the D-Backs game 7 was easily the most surreal thing I'd seen in a long time.

Arizona brings in arguably the best bunter in the game, who proceeds to lay down the worst bunt in WS history, and Rivera then throws the ball away.

It brought me almost as much joy as watching Pedro grab the Gerbil by the head and fling him to the ground.

[JTG51]

Don't forget, whenever the Yankees needed a win, what started did they hand the ball to?

They handed it to whoever's turn it was in the rotation.

I'll miss Pettitte and I really wish they had resigned him, lets not make him out to be Sandy Koufax though. He was great in the playoffs last year but wasn't exactly Mr. Clutch when he was getting bombed in the 2002 ALDS and 2001 World Series.

Still, I'll be rooting for him in Houston. I'd love to see him pitch a game in the World Series at Yankee Stadium again.

[Clarkmeister]

The Brown deal is reportedly completed.

When its all said and done, the Yankees will be the favorite to win the 2004 World Series. Just like they will be forever unless the system is changed or Steinbrenner dies.

[B-Man]

When its all said and done, the Yankees will be the favorite to win the 2004 World Series. Just like they will be forever unless the system is changed or Steinbrenner dies.

The Red Sox' rotation next year is going to be Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, Wakefield, and B.K. Kim (unless he is traded, in which case Bronson Arroyo is in line to be the 5th starter).

The Red Sox have all the keys guys from their bullpen (which was untouchable in the playoffs) under contract--Timlin, Embree and Williamson--and are attempting to sign the best closer on the market.

On top of that, they are on the verge of trading for the best shortstop in the history of the game, a guy who's averaged 52 home runs the last 3 seasons. Sure that would mean losing Nomar and Manny, but they'll get a replacement left fielder at a fraction of the cost and be better off overall.

Contrast that with the Yankees, who have lost 60% of their rotation--Clemens, Pettite and Wells--as well as Nick Johnson and Juan Rivera; Vasquez was a good pickup (even though he's never pitched a big game in his life; see how the pressure affected Jeff Weaver) and it looks like they'll get Kevin Brown, but he's 39 and has missed substantial time two of the last three years. Given his recent injury history and age, he's a major risk (though he can be dominant if healthy).

No matter what Steinbrenner does the rest of the offseason, I can't see the Yankees having a lineup or a pitching staff as good as Boston's.

I think you are smoking crack if you think the Yankees will be favored to win the A.L. East, let alone the World Series.

[JTG51]

Do you really think Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, and Wakefield is a better rotation than Brown, Mussina, Vazquez, and Contreras/Wells? Looks pretty close to me, with a lot depending on the health of Pedro, Schilling and Brown. I wouldn't be willing to bet that one will be better than the other.

The Sox aren't signing Foulke. It looks like they may try to make a deal for Percival though. The Yankees bullpen with the addition of Quantrill and Gordon will be significantly better than the Sox either way.

I won't bother comparing the lineups since so much is up in the air with she Sox right now, but whatever deals they make it won't be significantly better than (this is how I'd like to see the Yankees lineup):

Jeter
Williams
Sheffield
Giambi
Soriano
Posada
Matsui
Boone
Whoever the DH is

ARod is tremendous, but if they lose both Manny and Nomar from the lineup he doesn't make them better offensively.

If you think Sox are heavy favorites, Clarkmeister isn't the only one on crack.

[Porcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
Supposedly Steinbrenner offered $8,000,000 than the Astros, but Pettitte chose to be closer to home.

What I liked about Pettitte is what Bill James said about Don Mattingly: 100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't heard about the Yankees possibly offering $8M more. Houston did have the "close to home" edge, but I also heard that Andy hadn't forgetten all the times he was (or felt he was) jerked around and/or taken for granted by George.

He'll be missed, but the Empire will survive.

FWIW, hopefully we did just lose him so he could be closer to home and not because of posturing and other crap like that.

[B-Man]

Do you really think Pedro, Schilling, Lowe, and Wakefield is a better rotation than Brown, Mussina, Vazquez, and Contreras/Wells?

Yes.

The Sox aren't signing Foulke. It looks like they may try to make a deal for Percival though. The Yankees bullpen with the addition of Quantrill and Gordon will be significantly better than the Sox either way.

Ridiculous. The Yankees' bullpen sucked last year--they needed to sign two guys like Quantrill and Gordon (who will be 36) just to be mediocre, let alone great.

If you think Sox are heavy favorites, Clarkmeister isn't the only one on crack.

Please point out where I said "heavy favorites."

The Red Sox had the best lineup in baseball last year, leading the majors in most categories, and they broke the all-time record for slugging percentage (previously held by the '27 Yankees). I would bet the lineup will not be as dominant this year, regardless of whether or not they trade for A-Rod, but it will still be very good. It should be better than the Yankees' lineup either way, though I agree signing Sheffield improves NY.

As for the rotations, I would happily bet that the Red Sox rotation will outperform the Yankees' rotation.

The Yankees' dynasty is crumbling. The Red Sox will be favored to win the division next year (for the first time in a very long time).

[JTG51]

Please point out where I said "heavy favorites."

You said Clarkmeister must be on crack to think the Yankees are the favorites. That implies not only that the Sox are favorites, but that it's not close, no? I mean, you said he's got to be on crack, not that he's probably wrong by a little bit.

Ridiculous. The Yankees' bullpen sucked last year...

As did the Sox. Why is that even slightly relevant when looking at next seasons bullpen though? The Yankees bullpen will have five different pitchers from what they had most of last year. The one guy that's left over (Rivera) isn't too bad.

...they needed to sign two guys like Quantrill and Gordon (who will be 36) just to be mediocre, let alone great.

Their bullpen will be Rivera, Quantrill, Gordon, Heredia, Gabe White, and whatever starter doesn't make the rotation. That should be the best bullpen in baseball. If they are going to be mediocre, tell me the 10 or 12 bullpens that you expect to be better this year.


The Sox lineup was great last year, in large part because a bunch of guys had career years. Do you expect Mueller, Millar, Walker, and Nixon to put up significantly better numbers than their career averages again? That's asking for a lot.

[Dr Wogga]

....Bosox had career years out of a number of guys. Don't expect that this year. BTW, both the Yanks and Red Sox were 3:1 to win it all prior to the Pettitte departure. Haven't looked today, but expect Yankees to slide and Sox to remain where they are. Being a life-long die-hard, pinstripe bleeding Bomber fan, it is getting harder and harder to root for this organization. Thinking seriously about canceling my YES cable subscription. Just my way of saying to George to go eff himself - not that it will matter. But one thing that cannot be said often enough, George spends tons of money on marginal non-talents, middle relief guys that don't get on the post-season roster, dotes over druggies and malcontents (Wells, Strawberry, Gooden, and now scumbag Sheffield), yet he couldn't bring himself to get personally involved in the Pettitte negotiations. Wouldn't go for a 4th year - this with a guy who has become a disciple of Roger Clemens' workout mentality. The bum Steinbrenner couldn't even make a goddmaned telephone call to a guy who has been nothing short of a model of pride in wearing the pinstripes. Sad times for Yankee fans - maybe time to get a new team /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[JTG51]

I'll never go looking for a new team, but I agree that it's not quite as fun to be a Yankee fan now as it was 5 or 6 years ago. That's partly because of George's growing influence and partly because of the current state of baseball.

Still, I feel lucky to be a fan of a team with such deep pockets and a willingness to do anything to try to win.

[David Steele]

ALl this nonsense about Redsox-Yankees when the real burning question is what effect Petitte and Houston will have on the NL and in particular on the SF Giants.

D.

[andyfox]

Don't forget the second bunt. It was worse. Rivera easily nailed the runner at third and Brosius might well have completed a double play had he then thrown to first. He chose not to, and it was criticized by the TV announcers at the time (and by Rivera later).

[andyfox]

Except for rating A-Rod over Honus Wagner, I agree with everything.

The Yankees could well be quite good, but the bottom line is that Clemens and Pettitte won 38 games last year and if Vasquez and Brown are good, and win, say, 32 between them, and all other things are equal, that puts the Yankees behind the Red Sox. Before they added Schilling.