SB slow-play in multi-way; board double coordinated

[elysium]

10-20 loose/controlled gamed that at select times becomes aggressive.

this hand was played in field conditions dangerously presumptive. i'm in the SB with JJ and raise 7 callers. all call.

this whole hand centers around the aggressive button and the utg+1 who likes to call a lot. i'm not exactly sure what to do here if the flop leaves me with an over-pair verses a set. no matter what i do, the utg+1 will call with his draw and fold less than top pair best kicker. the button will bet with anything, but won't raise unless he has 2 pair or more greater. so i'm using these two opponents to adjust the thinking in the remainder of the field. but it's all very unclear what i should do.

flop; JTx 2 clubs....i still don't know what to do. if i bet, the utg+1 will call, and so will everyone else. but if i check, the bet will come late, it will be 1 bet to me but a raise won't get that much more into the pot because if i raise, the field will fold leaving me in a 3-way against the utg+1 and the button, or perhaps a 4 way; so i don't really pick up any additional bets by raising. the problem is that i raised the pre-flop. i know that i should check-raise this thing.......maybe. however, a check-raise will not get the utg+1 out. and i want the rest of the field in.

the button bets the JTX two-tone, and i call. it's still 7-way.

the turn) a rag; i check-raise the button, only the utg+1 and the button call.

the river) puts the third club on board, i bet-out. the utg+1 calls and so does the button.

of course, the utg+1 took it down with a baby flush. my main question is since i couldn't adjust the odds downward enough to make the utg+1's call incorrect, should i have just raised like a mad man on the flop? in hindsight, since the pre-flop was raised, and i couldn't lower the odds downward enough anyway, i think that is what i likely should have done.

[slavic]

elysium- a draw is not making money off of you here. You have the best possible hand, and a redraw, it's time to make the pot as large as possible. The flush or straight draw may be making money off of other players and they are correct to call, but that doesn't mean your not getting the best of it.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
but a raise won't get that much more into the pot because if i raise, the field will fold leaving me in a 3-way against the utg+1 and the button, or perhaps a 4 way;

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that thinning the field would be a good thing on a coordinated flop. Especially if it leaves you only with guys you have some read on. Wouldn't it...?

[Paluka]

This post is one of the strangest I've ever read. If flopping top set causes you this much trouble, just fold preflop.

[nykenny]

agree, Paluka.

hero should have just bet and raise at every opportunity. when river flushed just check and call. in a 7 way raised pot out of position with top set, i think playing ABC is just fine. best hand on the river wins. in such a huge pot, u can really force any big mistakes.

Kenny

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
flop; JTx 2 clubs....i still don't know what to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet and hope someone raises so you can re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
however, a check-raise will not get the utg+1 out. and i want the rest of the field in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're being results-oriented here. You're trying to create an optimal strategy that gets the most money in the pot while getting out the guy who ends up beating you on the river. Nonsensical to think about, since on the flop you have no idea which of your 7 opponents might have the draw that ends up making it on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
the turn) a rag;

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet again, like you should have on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
the river) puts the third club on board, i bet-out.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Bet out. Good.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
This post is one of the strangest I've ever read. If flopping top set causes you this much trouble, just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you were going to say "I knew there was a reason you shouldn't play JJ pre-flop."

[elysium]

hi ny
well, checking on the flop rather than betting out is the issue here. since i had been betting out a lot with the goods, i wanted to check for variance. now of course, had the bet come from the utg+1, there would be no need to post this particular hand. the main issue isn't how much value i place on my hand, it is that had i bet-out on the flop, all would have called. if you doubt that, then you're saying that perhaps a MP would have raised had i bet-out. but i assessed the odds being just as good that a EP would bet-out if i checked; then of course i would have check-raised. so, i'm not sure that anyone can say definatively whether or not checking from first and waiting for developmental opportunities.....well, now i have to go. but please show where the ev here is. when the button bets out, i can't check-raise anymore. if the EP had bet out, as i said earlier, this post wouldn't be necessary.

you need to show where the ev is.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This post is one of the strangest I've ever read. If flopping top set causes you this much trouble, just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you were going to say "I knew there was a reason you shouldn't play JJ pre-flop."

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha! Nah, this one required something beyond my standard response.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
it's not as simple as it appears when the read is this strong. i know the UTG+1 is on a draw, and i know the the players in between are weak. i also know the button will bet. now, of course, it would be non-sensical to bet it that way. according to my read, i should definately bet out. but there is one problem in doing that.

i have been betting out from first a lot with the goods. when the set flops, i look at my watch and realize that it's time to check-bluff with the goods. and so i check-bluff.

as i thought would happen, the utg+1 checks to the button who bets out. that leaves me good on my 'with the goods' check-bluff: bet-out ratio, but i can't follow up my check-bluff with a raise of the button's bet because if i raise, i drive-out the MP's who i know are drawing dead. futhermore, i know that my raise will only be called by the utg+1 and the button. that's only two extra bets in the pot when simply calling produces four extra bets. and there may be another check-bluffer in the MP weeds. i gave a good reason for coming out with a check-bluff, can someone give me a good reason to bet-out to get everyone to fold?

i can.

i should have bet out on the flop to fold everyone out and win the pot due to its size.

after the hand, the utg+1 told me that he had no intention of folding. i knew that.

[slavic]

elysium - game theory goes out the window when you have the best possible hand and a large field. It's time to break out Kindergarden Poker and jam it.

Oh and while your at it, can you pass the paste?

[JimmyV]

Elysium,

This thread was over in terms of poker substance as soon as you said in your first post that you knew what to do "In hindsight." What you meant by this was not that results and reflection had shown you the proper play, but that reflection on your own post in progress had shown you in hindsight what the body of the POST should have said.

The post should have said, "I gave up a ton of EV and then oh yeah, also, someone else made his draw. Funny old thing, life." (In other words, I agree with Paluka and Ulysses.)

You're smarter than this. Bet the flop and try, for variance, to not be a nincompoop. Bet and raise. This is what nuts+redraws is all about. Others will build the pot, and you should have realized before your initial flop action that the check-raise was inappropriate. Bet and re-raise, and build the stairway to a large pot one riser at a time (cf. on the metaphor Ashley Adams' new stud book, under "Adding to your repertoire").

The real substance of this post w/r/t EV is only the question of whether the huge volume of crystal meth you're consuming justifies an in-home lab, and if so whether you begin pretty quickly to develop economies of scale that justify your developing a clientele, whether wholesale or retail. It's clear that you're just smoking TONS of the stuff.

Your fan,

JimmyV

[Boopotts]

Unless there's a trick to this game that I haven't yet unearthed, I don't know how you could 'know' that the UTG has a legitimate draw before he even acts. That said, I refer you to Confucious, who, when asked how to play top set in a large, multi way pot, said:

"Grasshoppah, when you have the best hand, and the best draw, you must get as much money in the middle as possible."

One other thing-- there's virtually nobody in this hand who's a: drawing dead, and b: would see the next card for one bet, but not two. You've probably got about 287 active gutshot draws out against you, and they're all probably going to come no matter what the price (since a fair number of them have an overcard working), and those intrepid souls who will call with red 8's here aren't going to care what the price is either. If you can't get people to fold, then charge them as much as possible to finish the hand. It's really that simple.

Bummer about the river /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
start a refresher course in hfap and top. you need to get back to basics. this happens when you don't rehash and restudy from time to time. i am beginning to notice some very bad plays again.


[/ QUOTE ] - elysium

The basics elysium, the basics....You have the best hand and a redraw...bet...since you didn't do that checkraise.

Chips like to be with other chips in the middle of the table. Do yours a favor and let them fly /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
i should definately bet out. but there is one problem in doing that.
....
i have been betting out from first a lot with the goods. when the set flops, i look at my watch and realize that it's time to check-bluff with the goods. and so i check-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Save your check-bluffing for a time when the goods you have are not quite as good as top set in an 8-way field.