2 tough hands (for me)

[elindauer]

Party 2/4

Hand 1:

A couple limpers to me, and I limp along on the button with

K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

The blinds come along for the ride.
The flop is the beautiful -

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

OK, time to make some money. EP limper bets, MP calls... wow. OK, maybe I'll just smooth call and tag these guys on the turn. I know they have trouble laying it down at this level. So I call. Blinds fold.

Turn:

A /images/graemlins/club.gif

EP bets. MP raises. I fold?! Talk about your failed slowplay.


OK, Hand 2:

In fact, the very next hand. One limper to me, this time I raise with:

A /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Button folds. Blinds and the limper call. 4 to the flop of:

A /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me. I bet. ALL call. Hmmm.

Turn:

5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to me. I bet. ALL call. What?

River:

9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif


Checked to me. I ... check?!


Results to follow. Thanks for your advice.

[Brian]

Hi elindauer,

Hand #1: This is a terrible fold on the Turn. You under-represented your hand both pre-Flop and on the Flop, so you need to be willing to withstand a lot of heat on the Turn, because no one has any idea that you flopped a monster. I would raise the Flop though. Your hand isn't invincible, so get the money in there while you still have the best of it.

Hand #2: "ALL" call here is only 2, right? Or did I miss something? I am not sure why you are surprised that everyone called. This isn't the WSOP here; people will call you down with any King, any Ace, and sometimes pocket pairs. This is a definite value bet on the River.

-Brian

[SpaceAce]

I think you gave up on your two pair WAY too easily. I also think you severely underplayed it. I would definitely have raised the flop. Neither of your opponents looked like they were in a hurry to get out of the hand. I would have raised the turn, too, to see where I stood. If you get reraised there, maybe you worry. You definitely don't just dump two pair because someone bets into you. On the turn, you're possibly facing AK, AA, KK or QQ. With all that limping, I think you are more likely to be facing KJ, QJ or even another KQ.

The Ace on the turn is ugly with all that action but I would at least check-call it down. I think your biggest mistake was trying to slow-play two pair.

In hand two, it's not a stretch to imagine that you are facing a weak Ace or even a King. These opponents clearly want to get to the river as cheaply as possible. I think you're doing the right thing by betting each street but I think you should go ahead and bet one more time on the river. Yes, one of those three (it is three, right?) people could very well have been looking for the flush but it's far from certain with no bet on the river. The way I see it, if you put in one more bet and lose, you only lose one more bet. However, if you put in one more bet and everyone calls, you win three additional bets if you win the hand. So, unless you think your chances of winning are worse than 3:1, I think you should bet.

SpaceAce

[elindauer]

Hi Brian,

You may be right that it's terrible to fold the KQ. I sure was surprised at how quickly I went from slowplay to fold there... that ace, coupled with the turn raise, was very scary. All of a sudden I saw a million hands that beat me... AK, AQ, JT, A7... not to mention the outside chance of, say, pocket 7s. I wasn't getting even close to correct odds to draw, and there aren't that many legitimate raising hands that I can beat... I don't know. It was weird.

For Hand #2, all call is three players (two blinds, one limper). Sorry if that wasn't clear. Yeah, it's not ridiculous, but it is a lot of action for my jack kicker. I take it you bet the river here?


Thanks.
Eric

[elindauer]

Hi SpaceAce,

I'm not surprised to take some heat for slowplaying my KQ. Obviously, raising the flop is a perfectly valid way to go. But are you saying it's wrong to just call the flop? It sure looks like I'm way ahead, and will get a chance to nail at least 2 players with a turn raise... why shouldn't I wait? Granted, it didn't work out very well for me this hand (or did it?), but I think this is a very unusual case.

Top 2 pair, rainbow board, and a good indication that there will be action in front of me on the turn... what's not to love? In this passive game, a flop raise frequently puts the breaks on... I didn't want the action to slow down just yet.


Thanks for your comments.
Eric

[Sheriff Fatman]

I think my thoughts might differ if this were a hand at a higher level but at Party 2/4 there are still enough fish at the tables to query the wisdom of any calls or raises. A lot would depend on what your reads on the players in question were. Your decisions seem to assume that you are among decent players, which might not be the case.

Hand 1:
I don't like the flat call on the flop in this case. I understand the reasoning behind it but it loses you the initiative that a raise would probably have generated. You might not drive players out but there's more chance that the action will come back round to you and you can take the lead. As it happened, it looks to have given someone a cheap opportunity to draw out on you. The flat call doesn't give any indication of strength so no-one is then afraid to bet on the turn.

As it happens the turn card is a scare card. JT is a popular limping hand so the straight is a possibility. AA, KK, QQ or AK would probably have been raised pre-flop so my only other likely fears at this stage are AQ, A7 and 77. Against all 3 you have outs on the river so I don't like the fold on the turn. Without any reads at these levels, the raise could easily be from club flush draws, straight draws or even holders of an Ace. A re-raise here (and the subsequent response to it) would further narrow down the likely holdings and would be my preferred choice. I'd definitely see the river even if the betting was capped.

Action on the river would obviously depend on what fell and what the action was. A king or queen takes away a lot of the scary holdings and gives you an almost unbeatable hand. Definitely worth staying in for in my view.

Hand 2
From the CO there's nothing wrong with the pre-flop raise. It buys you the button and the initiative. If the AJ was unsuited it would be a different matter but I like the raise here.

The flop is reasonable for you. You are beaten by AA, KK, AK, AQ, 88, A8 and K8 at this stage. The first 3 (and possibly the fourth and fifth would probably have been raised pre-flop). However, all would probably have raised your flop bet unless they were being tricky. The calls to me indicate weak play with weaker hands so I'm not too worried at this stage.

The turn brings a few more scares including the back door flush but I think you are right to continue to bet. Again, the calls don't give you much info but the made hands that beat you would definitely be raising here.

River - debatable check/bet situation here. You've had no real info on the likely hands of the opposition. There's no flush or straight been made but there are enough hands out there that beat you for me to be inclined to check. The risk is that you may be susceptible to a raise here by anyone holding 2 pair or better.

Personally, I like your play of this hand, although there's no guarantee that you've won it.

[Brian]

Hi elindauer,

In Hand #1, you are seeing monsters under the bed. You must understand that your opponents have *absolutely* no idea what you have, and could be raising with as little as an Ace with no kicker. After all, if I were in their situation, I would think that a hand like A5s was the best hand, and would definitely raise the Turn. There are a multitude of other hands they could have as well.

I am sure this was a lesson to you about why slowplaying is bad. If you had raised the Flop, both players called, and the Turn action went the way you described, then, and only THEN, would I even think about laying my hand down. And I probably wouldn't have. You are correct that if you are behind to a hand like, say, a set of 7's, you do not have the odds to draw. But theres no reason to think you are anywhere but ahead.

In Hand #2, yes, I would value bet the River. No one has shown any resistance yet, and the board isn't very threatening. You will get called by many worse hands.

-Brian

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
your opponents... could be raising with as little as an Ace with no kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's possible, but very unlikely in this typically passive party 2/4 game.

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure this was a lesson to you about why slowplaying is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see this. None of the hands I am worried about are going anywhere if I raise the flop. If my fold is correct, then my slowplay saved me money.

Now, maybe you are arguing that I was in a tough spot, and raising the flop would have clarified my position on the turn, making it easier to make the right play. That's fair. But how many other cards could have come off which would have made for an easy turn -raise-? Lots. How frequently will an ace hit -and- produce all this action in front of me? Rarely. It seems like raising just to avoid this difficult spot might be playing it too safe. But I don't know. That's why I'm asking I guess.


Thanks for the suggestions.
Eric

[Brian]

Hi elindauer,

[ QUOTE ]
That's possible, but very unlikely in this typically passive party 2/4 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say this table is definitely passive. I heard someone Flopped the top two and never raised with it. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see this. None of the hands I am worried about are going anywhere if I raise the flop. If my fold is correct, then my slowplay saved me money.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect logic. Whether or not your opponents wind up outdrawing you on the Turn has no relevence to what the correct Flop play is. So saying that by not raising on the Flop, you saved yourself a bet when a scare card came on the Turn, is not good logic.

You are not raising the Flop to drive hands out. Like you said, they are not going anywhere. You should raise the Flop for value, because you have no reason to believe you don't have the best hand, and there are many cards that can come on the Turn that can best your hand. Raise while you have the best of it.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, maybe you are arguing that I was in a tough spot, and raising the flop would have clarified my position on the turn, making it easier to make the right play. That's fair. But how many other cards could have come off which would have made for an easy turn -raise-? Lots. How frequently will an ace hit -and- produce all this action in front of me? Rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is precisely what I am arguing, yes. By not raising on the Flop, you have now put yourself in a tough spot on the Turn. Did he hit his straight with JT? Was he slowplaying a better hand all along? Or did he stick around to catch an Ace, has done so, and is now raising with it? You must realize that by slowplaying on the Flop, you must be willing to take more heat on the Turn. Your opponents have no idea where you are at. You cannot fold.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like raising just to avoid this difficult spot might be playing it too safe. But I don't know. That's why I'm asking I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many more reasons to raise than just these. You are letting your opponents see a relatively cheap Turn card when there are many possible draws out there. You have what is most likely the best hand and this is an excellent opportunity to get more bets into the pot.

-Brian

[bunky9590]

Wow, I can honestly say (don't take this personally) They were played Horribly.

Hand 1 is an easy 3 bet on the flop. when the Ace hits and there is a raise, I will probably not fold at a party 2/4. You probably have the best hand here, though not a certainty, as ace chasers now think the have the best hand with their ace no kicker. I would wither call or three bet the turn there, if called or raised, look at the showdown for a check call unless you improve to FH.

Hand 2:

You have to bet that river, the 9 was scary why??? no flush draw, runner runner 67 str8 draw keeping you up at night??? Bet that river.

[Nottom]

Hand 1:
At first glance this look just like my KQ hand, but I think you need to call here. With no preflop raise the only hand you should really be worried about is A7 or maybe 77 for the slowplayed set (or JT for the straight ... missed that).

Although 2-pair looks strong its rarely good enough to try and slowplay, bet-raise the flop and it makes your turn decision much easier.

Hand 2: Bet the river, if your beat so be it.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hand 1: Your biggest mistake wasn't not raising the flop or folding the turn; it was not raising KQo on the Button after 2 limpers.

Hand 2: You have a definitely value bet on the river versus 3 opponents here. Up until then, you played well.

GoT

[elindauer]

If you said to call, you're partly correct. I did have the raiser beaten... he has AT, for top pair with a gutshot straight draw to the nuts. I didn't even consider this hand at the table, though I should have. The preflop action elliminating hands like AK and AQ also didn't occur to me at the time, which is bad. In my defense, this raise is somewhat out of character for this table. I would expect most of my passive opponents to just call here.

The good news for my fold is, the initial better did in fact have JT. Strangely, he chose to just call the turn with the nuts (now that's more like it...), then bet out with the river was a T. Turn raiser just calls with 2 pair. Weird hand. I may have misplayed my way into losing the least. Nice.


Thanks for your comments. I'm still not convinced that raising the flop is definitely the best play. I can see that you'll wish you had if an ace hits the turn, but I can't spend my whole life fearing aces now can I?

That said, I'll certainly think about it more. Given the actual hands, a blank on the turn may have been checked to me, and my flop slowplay would have simply cost me bets. Hmmmm... back to the drawing board.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[elindauer]

My hand was good. The first caller also had an ace, but with a weaker kicker. The second had a king. Third wasn't in the hand history. So there were several potential payoff hands lined up to call, and I missed 'em. At least 1 BB, maybe 2 missed by checking this time. Argh.

That top-pair-less-than-top-kicker starts looking awfully flimsy when you've got three callers and not too many draws possible. Did I wuss out? Maybe, tough call. I'm glad to see that most people are at least somewhat wary about betting.

Still, in these passive games, it's probably better to fire again on the river and let them find a way to call. I think.


Thanks for the advice.
Eric

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi SpaceAce,

I'm not surprised to take some heat for slowplaying my KQ. Obviously, raising the flop is a perfectly valid way to go. But are you saying it's wrong to just call the flop? It sure looks like I'm way ahead, and will get a chance to nail at least 2 players with a turn raise... why shouldn't I wait? Granted, it didn't work out very well for me this hand (or did it?), but I think this is a very unusual case.

Top 2 pair, rainbow board, and a good indication that there will be action in front of me on the turn... what's not to love? In this passive game, a flop raise frequently puts the breaks on... I didn't want the action to slow down just yet.


Thanks for your comments.
Eric


[/ QUOTE ]

Hello,

Ugh, I had written like 200 words but I am going to try and condense it.

In a game like $2/$4 where a lot of people see flops - and rivers if you let them - slow playing anything less than a really killer hand is inviting disaster. Flopping two pair is great but as soon as you have it you need to start making people pay to see more cards. The more money you get in when your hand is the favorite, the better off you are. I firmly believe that the way to do that in low limit holdem (ESPECIALLY online) is to bet and raise and reraise at every opportunity. Even if slow playing doesn't get you beat, it probably costs you bets. Thos guys weren't going to fold to a raise after betting and calling. Then, after calling your raise they would be more inclined to call your turn and river bets so you would have gotten the maximum amount of money in.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see this. None of the hands I am worried about are going anywhere if I raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be misunderstanding the point some of us are trying to make. It's not about getting your opponents out of the pot, it's about getting bets in while you're the favorite.

Yes, sometimes you will drive them out but that is just an added bonus when you get rid of a hand that would have beaten you. However, the real point is to make as much on your winning hands as possible and you won't be doing that by missing opportunities to get more bets in. You could be planning to check raise the turn but that's where the vulnerability of two pair comes in. It's just not worth slow playing in my opinion. I really believe you will only cost yourself money in the long run with that play.

SpaceAce