Reading other players

[Ric]

I recently picked up playing Hold 'em, I'm one of the many who saw it on ESPN and the Travel Channel and thought 'hey, I think I can do well at this!' I recently found a 1/2 home game, and am currently about 20 BB down overall. The table seems pretty typical, there's one or 2 loose players and the rest are pretty tight, but all much more experienced than me.

In my opinion, the reason I am down is that I cannot tell when to lay down my hand, especially if I only need to call one more bet. This is not the case when laydowns are obvious, like if I flopped 3rd pair and there's a bet and 3 callers before me, but cases of when I make a semi decent (2 pair or better) hand, stay in until the showdown, only to see that my opponent had me beat the whole way. It's not that I play bad hands (unless I get a free play in the BB), but I just can't let go of the hands I do make when it's obvious that I should.

Finally, I get to the purpose of my post. What should I focus on when I watch the other players at the table during the game? Should I focus on their betting patterns, or instead concentrate on tells? There seems to be so much information going on at once, it's hard to keep track of sometime. I'm sure most of this will come with more experience (I only have about 20 hours of live playtime with real chips), but since I've started on my first losing streak it's been very discouraging. Should I find a new game? Take some time off? Read a poker book? I probably won't go back to the home game until January, I'm on winter break from college soon.

Thanks for any advice, I'm hope I'll evolve from a fish to a shark before I go broke.

[banditbdl]

Focus on your own play first of all, before you worry about the other players. Definitely read some books and post some specific hands from your home game that gave you trouble. You say you don't say bad hands, but it always seems players new to the game need to tighten up preflop more than they realize. I know I did. The key thing is not to be tempted by the good, but not good enough hands, as they are the most expensive. They'll get you into the situations you talk about where you have the 2nd best hand all too often.

[Ric]

I don't remember the specific action on this hand, but one hand that bothered me was when I had AQ, someone else had KJ, and the board came AQTKx. I couldn't fold my 2 pair, even though I had the feeling that he had the straight. Was this just a payoff situation, or should I have folded on the turn? I'm pretty sure he raised me almost every opportunity, or seemed more than happy to call.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I find a new game? Take some time off? Read a poker book? I probably won't go back to the home game until January, I'm on winter break from college soon.


[/ QUOTE ]
20BB loss and 20 hours of total play is hardly an evidance that you play bad or good. read a book anyway. and "taking a break" sounds too funny coming out of a newbie with 20 hours of play, ehehe /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Ric]

I know I sound like a total wimp when I say that, $40 must be pocket change for higher-limit players like yourself, but I'm simply not used to having that much money just go away over the course of a couple hours.

I guess that shows that I'm not ready for anything but play money right now, I don't think I could take a -200BB hit, or even worse if I don't play well. I think I'll just spend what little time I would be playing reading up on theory and strategy, until I can get a real job that allows me to have more than $300 in my bank account. Does that sound like a decent plan?

[SpaceAce]

Here are two pieces of advice that I think will help you as a beginner.

1) Play online micro-limits like $.02/$.04
2) Here's how to tell when to lay your hand down: when you don't flop at least top pair or four to a draw. Seriously, if the flop doesn't hit you, dump your hand. If you act first, give it one bet and dump to a raise. Dump to a bet on the turn if that doesn't hit you, either. If you flop middle or bottom pair, drop it to action unless you have good draws to go with it. If you have a big pair and an overcard hits, drop your hand to any serious action (a raise or multiple callers). If you have a good hand (top pair-good kicker, overpair) get your money in as fast as you can. Please realize that this is BAD advice once you get better and start playing against better players but it can help you out a lot as a beginner. Just tell yourself, "I hit nothing on the flop. Drop the hand." In my opinion, the worst thing you can do is chase cards before you understand the numbers involved and learn to read why people are doing certain things.

Make sure to read books and study pot odds and the number of outs for common hands and things like that. Unless you are a total poker natural, you need to learn from those who have already figured it out.

SpaceAce

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

What should I focus on when I watch the other players at the table during the game? Should I focus on their betting patterns, or instead concentrate on tells?

Absolutely focus on betting patterns.

[fluff]

First of all, I would for the time being forget about "reading" other players, and instead start at the very basics: Improve your own game.

If you don't know when to lay down AQ top two pair and losing $40,- is a big deal to you, you really shouldn't be playing a $1/2 game.

My suggestion would:

1) Invest $20 or so on a beginners poker book. I would suggest Winning Low Limit Hold'em (WLLHE) by Lee Jones. Read it, and re-read it. Highlight important sections.

2) Start playing micro-limit games. You should ideally play games where losing 100BBs is not a big deal to you. (The common consensus is that even good players should have a 300BB bankroll, but at micro-limits you can be significantly lower if you can afford to lose). So for instance if you have $50,- you should be playing .25/.50 games. Several on-line poker sites offer games at that limit (and lower).

3) While playing games, keep reading WLLHE and try to see how it applies to your game. I can't stress this enough. There is more information there then you can absorb the first time you read it, and some of the stuff only start making sense after several hundered hands.

4) If you have hands you are unsure of, are interesting, or would like comments on, get the hand history and post it on the micro-limit forum. There are many helpful people there.

5) Read the micro-limit forum for other people's questions too.

6) Once you double your 100BB bankroll, you can move up one limit. Around this time would also be a good time to decide whether you like poker and invest in another poker book. Theory of Poker or Hold'em Poker (not Hold'em Poker for advanced players, yet. Save that for once you are past 2/4 or higher) both by David Sklansky is what I would recommend.

7) Finally, once you beaten the next level, have several thousands of hands (if not more) under your belt, you can invest in Caro's Book of Poker Tells by Mike Caro and try playing and reading people in real life.

Whew...that post got much longer than I thought it would. Didn't mean to type a whole lecture! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good luck out there, may the flop be with you.

[jedi]

As other people have already mentioned, work on your own game. Buy a book, read stuff online. Not all the stuff online is good, but if you read a bunch of it, you should be able to separate the good stuff from the bad.

Read this forum. It has IMMENSELY helped me in my own game. The skill in poker isn't just about winning pots, but also about stealing extra bets when you have the best of it, and losing fewer bets when your hand suddenly goes sour.

Tells at these limits aren't of much use. Focus on betting patterns. If you get to the turn/river and suddenly are faced with a tough decision, try to replay the hand and the betting. Then figure out the person's table image and what he could possibly have.

Do NOT be afraid to fold. If you raise pre-flop with AK, and the flop completely misses you, get out if there's any action. If you raise pre-flop with AA and there are 6 jokers hanging around and the flop brings a straight and a flush on the board, get out if there's any action. Yeah it sucks to lose out to garbage when you have Aces, but folding in the right spots saves you bets in the long run.

[Ric]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'll take it all to heart and hopefully my game will improve because of it.

Due to the size of my bankroll, I'm seriously considering setting up a Pacific account with about $30 and playing in their .05/.1 game to gain experience playing with real money. I was thinking about setting up a Pokerstars account instead, but you have to be 21 to play there and I'm not quite there yet /images/graemlins/wink.gif. I know at these nickel/dime games it's virtually play money, but the few times I've played with play money I came out ahead due to other's mistakes, so maybe this time I'll earn a few bucks instead of play chips.

As far as reading players, I've played a few hours in play money games and tournaments, and it seems that if I observe a player for a few hands I can get some semblance of what they have. There's some inaccuracies right now (I put him on top pair when he has 2 pair), but at the limits I set myself at I feel that I will be able to iron out the discrepancies without losing too much. One of my problems will be keeping track of all 9 players also at the table at once, but I think that that will come with much more experience.

Thanks for all the help again, I'll do my best to read up in the Micro forum so I can see how to improve my game.