Raise now or Raise Later

[Yeknom58]

2-4 online.

I had this happen twice in one session and it got me thinking about what to do in these large multiways pots when the board is super draw friendly.


I have 66 on the button. 4 limpers to me and I limp along, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop is: 4c, 5h, 6c.

SB checks, BB bets, one fold, and it's called to me. What do I do here? Do I raise or do I call and wait till the turn to see if any of the scary cards come. Please explain. Lets say I raised and everyone called.

Turn: Kc

Great, just great! Now it's checked to me. No way do I check it at this point but really I'm smelling the CR a mile away. So I bet. Folded to MP and he CR's, one CC, and I call.

River: Td

Now it goes check, check. Is this a value bet situation or are the only hands that call me are ones that I don't beat. Anyone with 2 pair like 45/56 or a smaller set probably would have raised on the flop. If MP or the Cold caller had the flush I don't think they would check the river. Not thinking about any of this, I bet, MP called and the Cold caller folded.

MP showed AcKh my set was good.

I guess there was one hand that calls that I beat.

[Schneids]

I would raise on the turn if a scary card doesn't hit. With the BB being the better you are in a perfect situation get a field of callers calling one bet and getting caught in the middle for a second bet, when the bet size is twice what it is on the flop. And by waiting for the turn, their odds of making their draw are twice as low as it was on the flop, so you're getting more money into the pot now when there's a greater chance you'll end up with the best of it. Only do not do this if you've seen the BB bet a flop and then check the turn many times.

[bernie]

sets are very dynamic. even if the guy showed me a flopped str8 id raise here. and if the guy cold calls behind, ill cap it.

the turn ill slow down a little. id have bet out and called a raise. unless there's enough players to jam it. here you only have 1 caller between you. id only call. he's trying to represent a flush at the moment.

great river bet. no flush when he checks the river here.

anyone with a hand, after c/r the turn, isnt going to risk losing bets on the river going for another c/r when it will likely be checked through. (noted exception: induced bet on the end. but that's usually a HU ploy)

id have been willing to call 1 bet, so when checked to, bet it. then it's a matter of calling a raise if youre c/r again. which id probably do just out of curiosity to see how he played the whole hand and with what. paying 1 more bet for that info would be worth it to me.

b

[rkiray]

Easy raise you want to make it expensive for draws. Especially say Ac, xnc. The MP played it worse than you did though. If he raised preflop I would not call 2 with 66.

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd raise the flop. Too draw heavy to wait for the turn. If you were bet into again on the turn when a straight or flush card comes, what do you do? Call down? That's a bit weak. Give yourself some equity and raise the flop and charge those callers.

I agree with bernie on this one. Wait up - bernie?! What's he doing here??!!

GoT

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop. Too draw heavy to wait for the turn. If you were bet into again on the turn when a straight or flush card comes, what do you do? Call down? That's a bit weak. Give yourself some equity and raise the flop and charge those callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when you raise the flop, and a flush or straight card hits on the turn and you're bet into? Or what do you do when you get check raised? Or do you check the turn if a scare card hits?


Seems to me you'd get more equity waiting until the turn to raise if no scare card comes, since if the BB bets again, the same people that called with the draw on the flop are calling the turn again, and now you're charging them an extra BB with one more card to go, instead of charging them an extra .5BB with two cards to go. The way I see it, if you raise the flop and a scare card comes on the turn, you have the same predicament you had as if you waited until the turn to raise since you're going to get bet into anyway, or check raised. You're still calling down either way, aren't you? Why not save .5 a BB when it looks scary (by having not raised at all on the flop, or turn), and gain an extra .5 when the turn isn't scary (by waiting till the turn to raise, versus raising the flop)?

Thoughts please? I respect all the posters who have posted and said raise the flop instead of the turn.

[Bob T.]

When he checked the river, I thought to myself, AcK of whatever. I think you have a bet on the river, but I don't think you have to call a checkraise.

[bernie]

remember you're also betting a drawing hand also. and it's a better draw than a flush draw. even though it is also a made hand. jamming the flop is usually +EV even if your behind in the hand at that point. this also helps with your pot odds on the turn. not that you would fold the turn, but it does help.

think of how many hands you are representing here by jamming the flop. it can also get you more action when you do hit your hand. think if a nut flush hits on the turn or river while it also pairs the board and puts a 4 str8 on the board. see the possibilities.

if a scared card hits the turn, you bet it and call a raise. unless there are about 4 or 5 players in, then you can think about jamming it. if someone bets into you, you call. then if you miss the river, you decide if you can realistically put the bettor on a better hand and call or fold. most of the time you will call this out for 1 bet. but there are players who wont bet unless they have you beat.

cya

b

[LetsRock]

The only set I even think about slow-playing is Aces and even then, the board better look like UNO cards. I will always, always, always ram and jam small sets on the flop. Escpecially with a flop that has this many ways to get ugly real quick. No free cards here.

The 3-flush on the turn does make things tough. Play on this depends on a lot of things, but there's no way I'm giving a free card. I'll take the chance of a c/r if it's checked to me and bet out or even raise if this forces players behind me to cold call 2 bets.

If there's still a lot of players I'll probably consider getting out (there's too many people who have too many ways of beating me); if it's heads-up (maybe 3-way), I'll go into call-down if it gets really ugly unless a 4-flush hits the river then I'll probably go away wimpering.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
think of how many hands you are representing here by jamming the flop. it can also get you more action when you do hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is the only reason to raise on the flop rather than turn, since I am still very confident, at least in games I play in, when I win the hand I will otherwise get more bets into the pot by raising on the turn, and lose less money when my hand ends up no good.

Thank you for the feedback though Bernie, I appreciate it. There are definitely merits to raising on the flop.

[Mike Gallo]

Yek,

With a coordinated board you want to make everyone pay for their draws.

On the turn when the third suit hit, you want to charge everyone with a singleton club. After he check raised you, turn the tables and reraise. You have outs to the nuts.

On the river if he checks, I would check behind or bet depending on the opponent. Not too many people will check raise the river.