When Should I give up???

[Goodie]

5-10 stud on party. I haven't been at the table long so I have no line on anyone's play. Bring in is right next to me and I start with:

4Q (Q)

I raise. There is one Queen and no fours out. A king behind me re-raises and is called by a ten, folded to me. I call.
Fourth Street is all bricks, King high bets, we both call. Fifth street is all bricks, King high bets, Ten calls.

This is where my questions lies. Against an opponent I know nothing about, should I call fifth and take another card off? Should I call sixth if I don't improve? Thanks for any responses.

Peace
Goodie

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Maybe I'm weak-tight, but I wouldn't be raising into a K with one of my Q's dead.

[Andy B]

I think that having a Queen out gives you all the more reason to raise, because you want to eliminate as many players as possible. I would be quite happy to win the antes with this hand. Once the King re-raises, however, I think you have to fold on third street unless this player is prone to getting seriously out of line. He should have Kings. You need to improve, and a key card for your hand is out. The guy who called two bets probably has a little something, and you have to beat both players. It isn't often that I will fold after raising, but this is one of those spots. I would fold whether the other player was in or not.

Be careful about making too many lay-downs like this, because you invite people to run you over.

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
Once the King re-raises, however, I think you have to fold on third street unless this player is prone to getting seriously out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that advice. The King could have reraised with a straight flush draw or a small pair with a King kicker in an attempt to eliminate players and get it heads up with the Queen. If the King was actually playing a pair of Kings, he wouldn't really mind a pair of tens calling and might choose not to reraise in that situation.

On fourth street, if I had a small pair and a King kicker, I would still want to eliminate the ten and get it heads up with the queen. To do that, I would consider checking my King in hopes that the ten would check to the queen and the queen would bet allowing me to raise, forcing the ten to call a double bet to stay in. Since the Kings bet out, maybe that's an indication you really are up against a pair of Kings. However, since you don't know the player's tendencies at that point in the evening(e.g. he only raises with high pairs and not high kickers), it would be wrong to fold a pair of queens if you weren't fairly certain you were up against a pair of Kings.

If the ten didn't catch a suited card or a straight card on 4th street, I think reraising the King was the way to go, and hopefully the King would reraise you, forcing the ten to face another double bet. You have to try like heck to get it heads up in those situations. Saving bets is not what should be concerning you at that point. Increasing your chances of winning the pot is more important.

The situation is complicated by one of your cards being out and the fact that it's not heads up--both strikes against you. Did you have anything else going for your hand? Three to a flush? Three to a straight? You're in a dicey spot, but you can get some consolation from the fact that for every bet you put in the pot there are two bets going in giving you higher effective odds. Unless something threatening appears on your opponents' boards, I think you have to stick it out to the river.

I think this advice is good:

[ QUOTE ]
Be careful about making too many lay-downs like this, because you invite people to run you over.

[/ QUOTE ]

[crockpot]

i would have folded on third unless this guy was very aggresive. you have too few avenues to improve and most players will not reraise you without kings or better here.

if he keeps betting, you will have to fold anyway unless you want to see the hand through with just queens, which is not a good play.

[MRBAA]

I don't fold this to the raise on 3rd against an unknown player. There are many, many, many players who will raise with other hands here. The third player hurts your chances of winning, but makes the pot bigger. By fifth street, there's no obvious improvement for anyone and you're getting about 6-1 on your call.
But only 8-2 if you assume both players in, you'll call sixth and fold the river if you don't make a second pair. This is why Andy advises folding on 3rd -- because once you're in the pot odds tend to keep you in. Of course, if there's a raise from either player I'm gone. And if I know the players, I can fold if the kings are sure to have kings. But I believe against weak players I win more than enough times with two pair to make calling here right. Remember, you only have to win about 1 in 4 of these pots to make calling breakeven.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I probably don't fold third, if for any reason but to keep people from running me over. However, by fifth I would be gone, probably on 4th. Whether to raise 3rd depends on my position and the tendencies of the players behind me. The more likely it is for me to steal the blinds, the more likely I am to call. With two overcards behind me I would NOT raise tho.

al

[CJC]

Hello,

Ok, was your sidecard suited to one of your Queens? Was that suit live? These are things to ponder.

The inital raise was fine ( and standard ), unfortunately you are in a predicament after being re-raised by the King.
Why? 1)You have no knowledge of your opponent 2)One of your needed queens is gone 3)low ante game 4)your sidecard blows.

Now I ask you about the suits of your card above,cause it might make this a playable hand. ( At least for me, but I generally can outplay most oppoenents on later streets and usually look for opportunities to do so!! ) I wont fault anyone for folding here,and it is probably the right play most of the time for most players,just beware I have seen players do some real screwy sh*t at the lower limit Party tables.

CJ

[Andy B]

With a Queen out, I want to steal the antes.

[SevenStuda]

Fold. Don't fall in love with your big pairs.

[patrick dicaprio]

it is a tough spot but think about the type of player that plays in these games.i donthave any experience with online play, but from what i hear some of the players arevery loose, but you would know better than I.

by strict logic since you represented a pair of q's it makes sense that he should have K's or A's to reraise. it is unlikely that he would reraise with a hand like TJK or a three flush (but he might do so if he were the first raise).against a tough player you are more likely to be good since he might reraise with a hand like 99K.

my experience at 5-10 when i was playing that level was that i would normally be beaten in this situation by most reraisers in this situation, and when i wasnt it was obvious because of the guys play.

Pat

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
by strict logic since you represented a pair of q's it makes sense that he should have K's or A's to reraise. it is unlikely that he would reraise with a hand like TJK or a three flush

[/ QUOTE ]

If you study SCSFAP carefully, you will realize that's not true. If you are the first one in and have a high card showing, and there is only one other card higher than your card behind you--as was the case with the Queen here--the Queen should raise with a flush draw, possibly a 10, J, Q straight draw with two of the cards suited, a pair of queens, or a small/medium pair with a queen kicker. In turn, the King should probably check a pair of Kings and reraise with a small/medium pair and a King kicker as well as a flush draw. Facing a raise and a reraise, the ten needs a flush draw with an overcard to the King and Queen, namely an Ace, or a pair of Aces, and should fold a pair of tens unless he has an Ace kicker.

So, if you know all of that, and you should, and you don't know anything about your opponents' abilities, I think you should assume they are good players to start off. As you can see, what the King and the Queen might have is not in anyway restricted to high pairs. To say the Queen represented a pair of Queens and therefore for the King to raise, the King needs a pair of Kings, is an overly simplistic view of the game, and I believe it will cost you money in the long run.

[patrick dicaprio]

no that is not correct. at a high ante game that would be teh right play but at 5-10 you will most likely not win with a live pair so you do not raise with just high cards in early position because you wont often get it heads up. this hand is a good example. if you raise often at 5-10 with hands like TJQ you can expect to lose.

i also would not assume that they are good players to begin with. most 5-10 players that i have played against were bad not good and the ones that were good stood out.

one more thing, i am not sure what you mean when you say the pair of kings should check in turn.

pat

[Diplomat]

Fold 3rd, or 4th without improvement.

-Diplomat