Overoverovercall

[Ulysses]

6-max Party 10-20. Very, very loose game. Pretty aggressive, but not crazy. One of the loosest games I've ever seen, though.


UTG raises. Two cold-callers. I 3-bet JJ on the button. SB caps it. BB, the true maniac in the game, very surprisingly folds. Everyone else calls. Capped 5-ways.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qh, Qd, Qc ]

SB checks. UTG bets. Call, Call. I raise. SB cold-calls. Call, Call, Call.

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5s ]

Check, check, check, check. Anyone want me to check? I bet. SB now check-raises. Dammit. Cold-call, cold-call, cold-call, cold-call. I call. This is really weird.

** Dealing River ** : [ 8s ]

SB bets. Call, call, call. OK, I call.

Weird, huh?

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Weird, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I'd call too, if only due to the pot size. I would expect SB to show me a higher PP or the Q most of the time, but the pot is large enough to easily call one more on the river and hope you're against TT or AK. The SB has pretty much played this like he has the Q or AA though...

[Diplomat]

I think you came in second, against Q7o, 55, and 88 -- 55 and 88 thought they had a 'double full house' which might be good in some home game.

I think calling the river is fine. It's bleh, but fine.

-Diplomat

[Clarkmeister]

OK, what could SB have? Not a queen or AA, no real reason to shut the field out on the turn. Whew. Only one hand that we are afraid of, KK. In the unlikely event the queen is out, its in UTG's hand and he didn't raise to keep you and the other dudes in. Awful doubtful though.

Sure seems KK isn't anywhere else. As for the SB, I'd expect SB to jam up KK more on the flop. The turn checkraise smacks of something more vulnerable, the other JJ, or maybe even 66-TT.

In fact, I think you are ahead of most of SB's hands here.

Plus, you are getting freaking four to one on your raise. That more than covers the times I run into KK, and even KK has trouble 4-betting you here IMO. No way I don't raise the turn here. If I get my ass 4-bet, thems the breaks but I think I'm in the lead against SB most of the time, I am almost certainly ahead of the other three. I figure I get paid in multiple places, and I may even get someone to fold an overcard or two, which I really really want right now.

[J_V]

LOL....on the double full house.

[J_V]

Great analysis, but I think KK is out there more than you do. I still think the river raise is reasonable getting 4-1.

[Schneids]

nm

[J_V]

I don't think he's played it at all like a Q or AA.....see Clarkmeister's post.

[Schneids]

Yes I agree, I somehow got the action concocted in my mind totally different:

Flop: UTG bets, calls to Ulysses who raises, SB cold calls, as do others call.

Turn: UTG bet again and this time Ulysses just calls, and then SB check/raised.


I don't know how I got that above in my mind as how the hand went out. If it had went this way then yes, SB probably has JJ beat.

[Diplomat]

You know...looking at it again, I wonder if there is room for a river raise. There really only are three hands that anyone but a complete maniac would re-raise you with here (Qx, AA, KK) and you are getting tons of bonus big bets in the middle...

Just a thought.

-Diplomat

[PokerPrince]

I like the way this hand was played and it would probably mirror mine to a tee. The one thing I'm thinking though is, would SB checkraise you(button) with Quads, knowing that it may full well eliminate the field of callmonkeys? Just something to think about, I know these games are ridiculously loose and anything is possible though so perhaps logic should be thrown out the window here. I just know that if I had the Quads first to act I wouldn't go for a checkraise with all the middlemen willing to call. Perhaps he has a pair larger than yours which seems reasonable to assume. Anyways, good play. By the way, a check on the turn would be atrocious. A bet here is highly manditory given the situation.

PokerPrince

[elysium]

hi ulysses
weird? this is great! you're on the button and the SB check-raises your strong hand that's running exactly strong enough to call any raise, and you get buku over-calls, and your call closes things? wow. and he bets out?

when the SB checks on the turn, you are the likely bettor. and look.....a 5! if he had AA or KK, he would bet out on the turn using the 5 as a shield to conceal his cowboys or rockets. if however the utg was the likely bettor and the SB checks, you're in trouble. but not here ulysses.

this hand gives a very clear picture of what a bet or check from first position conveys to the field. and this is very simple because we can reduce it all the way down to just 3 other possible hands that your hand is in contention against. furthermore, any other hand that beats yours will appear to be the winner to the first position bettor, so when he acts, his action will either be made to get as many possible bets into the pot as he can, or he will be trying to win the pot by all possible means.

here, he is trying to win the pot by all possible means. his check-bluff on the turn tells you everything. he cannot possibly be ahead of you. you take this one down.

should you raise the river? yes, i think you should. given the action you are a close enough favorite to call anything back at you pretty confidently.

[elysium]

hi clark
no clark no. ulysses knows that he is gauranteed that the SB will bet out on the river. ulysses must keep the SB lively here. never ever frighten a my gosh livekly SB when on the button in this situation. by far, far and away the best ev play on the turn is oooooo my, keep the SB lively. oh my.

[Philuva]

The CR by the SB on the turn seems like an isolation play fearing overcards. I put him on 99 - JJ. So I think a turn 3 bet is good call.

How did it turn out?

[Ulysses]

Excellent analysis, Mr. Meister. All I could come up w/ at the time was "Hmmmm, doesn't make sense for him to checkraise w/ a Queen here and probably not Aces either, so he probably has Kings."

I do think Kings will be there a fair amount given this sequence.

But had I thought it through a little more, I would have thought "Hmmmm, if someone has a bigger pair than mine, wouldn't we have seen a little more action on the flop? KK or AA aren't going to put me on quads that easily, are they?"

More importantly, I didn't give enough thought to two good points you made:

1) I have three guys in the middle to pay me off. I don't have to be good that much for this raise to be good.

2) It would be nice to have guys w/ Kings or Aces in their hand muck on the turn.

[Ulysses]

and all of us who had the same thought - SB shouldn't have a Queen and probably doesn't have AA, because it doesn't make sense to shut out the field on the turn w/ those hands.

I admit, that's exactly what I thought. I got a little stuck on KK and that's why I didn't re-raise.

But after the hand, I was wondering if that analysis is really as true as we think. For most 2+2ers here, it's obvious why you wouldn't play a Queen like that - a good way to make the minimum while holding the maximum. But I see mediocre players do stuff like this all the time. I have a set/flush/whatever - I must check-raise the turn! There's no real thought here, just that whne you make a huge hand, the way to play it is check-call the flop then check-raise the turn. They often don't think of total money won, just "I want to get a raise in on the turn!"

Anyway, just something to keep in mind when putting people on hands.

[DanZ]

with this many people paying 2 bets on the flop, you have to believe the Q is out there or you are otherwise beat. So, when that all check to you on the turn, you should check along if you feel you can't fold to a raise, as you have zero outs if beat. Don't forget, they can fold their zero - outers on the tunr if you bet, where they may pay off (someone else I hope) on the river if the turn is checked around.

I vote Check along and call 1 river bet. Betting and calling raises is "throwing a party" unless your opponents are dumber than dumb.

One thing about the river, is that it's very unlikely the case queen will raise if it's in early position and can pick up several overcalls. So you should be able to get out of the hand for 1 bet if you check the turn.

Dan Z.

[Ulysses]

I posted this hand for two reasons.

1) The results are pretty strange.
2) I thought, for the reasons Clarkmeister immediately hit on, I should have found a raise on either the turn or river.

On the turn, I put SB too squarely on KK. I figured the guys in the middle had smaller pairs for the most part. I thought there was a tiny chance that UTG had a very meekly played AA. But I didn't think so. Really I was just worried about SB having KK. In retrospect, I thought I should have found the raise on either the turn or river. But that's part of the problem w/ online and multiple SH tables - you only have a few seconds to act and it's sometimes hard to remember who exactly put in which exact bets/raises. In this case, I really just bailed on the hand and called.

Anyway, Diplomat nailed a key part of the results. SB did indeed turn a set w/ his fives and I guess got excited about his double full house. Too bad he got counterfeited - on the flop. His hand was shown, and the next three hands surprisingly went muck, muck, muck. And that left only me w/ my bigger single full house. Yahoo!

One thing I like about online poker is hand histories. I'm always really curious in spots like this. So, what do you think the three guys in the middle had? Take a guess.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

[ As 3d ] [ three of a kind, queens -- As,Qh,Qd,Qc,8s ]
[ Ah 2s ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Ah,Qh,Qd,Qc,8s ]
[ 7d Ac ] [ three of a kind, queens -- Ac,Qh,Qd,Qc,8s ]

FWIW, they did all have the second-nut 4-card hands.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
with this many people paying 2 bets on the flop, you have to believe the Q is out there or you are otherwise beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the 5-way cap pre-flop and all the callers on the flop definitely made me consider that.

[ QUOTE ]
So, when that all check to you on the turn, you should check along if you feel you can't fold to a raise, as you have zero outs if beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I asked. I was actually surprised nobody else suggested this. Still, it wasn't enough to convince me I was beat.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting and calling raises is "throwing a party" unless your opponents are dumber than dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]
As you'll see from the results, my opponents in this hand did in fact all turn out to be dumber than dumb.

Thanks for the response.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
So, when that all check to you on the turn, you should check along if you feel you can't fold to a raise

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that concern balanced by these two factors?

1) Smaller full houses will all likely call.
2) Aces and Kings will quite likely fold to a bet here.

[Vehn]

What a bunch of retards.

[DanZ]

well, yes, these are mitigating factors, however, you would have to fold out every AK with your bet, AND still be ahead, for it to show a profit.

IMHO, all the AK will only fold if you are raised (evidence - tey paid a big bet on the flop, and nothing has changes), and if you are raised, you will usually wish you hadn't bet - this goes without saying.

Another reason to check is you are more likely to get tiny FHs to call a river bet, which will probably come from somewhere else, but these hands might not call both turn and river, esp. if there is a turn raise.

So, of course you would hate a river overcard, but those cards you fear are probably pretty dead.

I am sure I miss bets sometimes against truly awful players in spots like these. It doesn't bother me too much for several reasons which I am sure you can figure out.

Dan Z.

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]
SB did indeed turn a set w/ his fives and I guess got excited about his double full house. Too bad he got counterfeited - on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly my guess...err, umm, deduction...was a result of fantastic hand reading.

-Diplomat

[DanZ]

I now understand why you posted this hand. At first, given your description of the game, I thought you posted this to leave us all straining to comprehend what a crazy game would be like, as you described this as "not crazy".

But now I realize that PartyPoker has paid you to post this. This thread will bring more players to their site than Chris Moneymaker.

Dan Z.

[Ulysses]

LOL. The lack of craziness I cited was merely regarding the level of aggression. And as far as Party tables go, this was definitely an anomaly (and didn't last for long as these guys started busting out pretty quickly). It's rare to see multiple opponents like this. It's more common to see a lot of bad players full of unrestrained, mindless aggression - and they are definitely harder to deal with.

[Moonsugar]

Yes. You shouldn't fold to a raise as de facto move. It is shown in this hand clearly.

The only people in this pot should be:

1) Queen
2) Overpair to other cards on the board
3) Pairing the non-Q cards on the board
4) Ace

Everyone else is silly and if they can call w/o these factors they can surely raise w/o them.