Odd QQ hand - your move?

[Brian]

Party 5/10. Haven't been at the table long, so no reads. I am dealt Q /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif UTG. I raise, EP cold-calls, MP re-raises, everyone else folds, I call, EP calls. 3 to the Flop for 10sb. I didn't cap here even though I may get some value out of it from the EP player because I wanted to be able to check-raise the Flop if it didn't have an A or K.

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, EP checks, MP bets, I raise, EP cold-calls, MP calls. 3 to the Turn for 19sb (9.5bb).

Turn: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Wow, great. Now I am surely behind to any re-raising hand. I check preparing to fold, but now EP bets, and MP folds! Your move?

-Brian

[AviD]

I'd cap preflop, bet/raise/cap that flop, then bet the turn and see what comes. If you get raised...start getting worried some.

With no reads, I'd likely fold to a raise.

[brian0729]

With no reads I probably call down.

I think not capping PF and leading the flop leaves you in a tough spot on the turn.

[Brian]

Hey guys,

Assuming the re-raiser isn't a maniac (which I assume when I am new to the table), I am likely either 50-50 or 80-20 against him. I think that it's best to just call and see what comes on the Flop. Against more opponents, I would definitely cap for value, but with just 1 fishy tagging along here, my capping likely gains me only half a small bet in value, or less. (This is because the MP re-raiser, with presumably a strong hand, gains as much from the cap, if not more, than I do, and I certainly don't gain anything from him).

I don't think that not capping pre-Flop has left me in a tough spot here. What would I do if I had capped, both of them called on the Flop, and an Ace slid off the deck on the Turn? Am I in any less of a tough spot because I capped pre-Flop?

-Brian

[AviD]

What if your cap preflop and after the flop pushed out the EP early, and your bet on the turn pushed out the MP? Could be a won pot on the turn...

I think at the point you are at in the hand, you should call down just to gain more information about the players (EP in this case). If he is bluffing, you'll find out. If he is overplaying a poor hand like Axo in EP and pulling an A on the turn and thinking that's strong...well use that in future hands.

[Brian]

Hi AviD,

I don't really understand your logic. How is my cap before the Flop going to push out EP? Someone who is willing to call 2 bets cold before the Flop surely won't give his hand up for another 2. Also, I don't really understand your logic behind "what if your bet on the turn pushed out the MP". What better hand am I going to "push out" on the Turn? And what does that have to do with capping pre-Flop?

-Brian

[AviD]

Well the way I see it, the EP pushed out the MP when the A fell...thats the way I read it (albeit not being at the table). I'm guessing he is easily swayed into dropping when a scary card lands that compromised the value of his hand.

Capping before the flop and on the flop potentially gives YOU that power instead of the EP. In addition, IF the EP is bluffing to represent Ax or AA or whatever he thinks the turn A improved enough to scare MP out with his raise, then you could certainly represent that same power.

Now, I'm not guaranteeing you could push out EP with caps on the flop and preflop, but if you did...he wouldn't be in the hand possibly...and you are heads up with MP who can be bluffed out.

It's an aggressive play I guess, but you are questioning it and I am certainly no expert. Wondering what others think about my approach...perhaps it is too loose or too risky.

I just think you have to keep them on their heals. I am also wondering why MP fell off to EP on the turn raise of an A. What was he raising with? What was EP cold calling with that the A improved BUT wasn't worth raising with preflop and after the flop? Was he slowplaying AA or AK? Was he overplaying an Ax hand to the turn with those cold calls?

Either way, I'm going to be aggressive in order to find out. If he wants respect for slowplaying a powerhouse, he's going to make me pay to find out...because I'm certainly going to make him pay with QQ until he shows me otherwise.

Just my .02, but the "safe" play (with no info about your opponents hand) is to muck. I like to feel them out, even if it costs me another 2 bets...it could save or make me a heck of alot more later. The capping BTF/ATF is just to add value to the pot with the callers, to represent power in your hand (and feel out theirs), and (at least to me) add incentive for the call down at the end.

Again, I am no expert, just building up as I go. If my approach is completely airholed...by all means let me know! /images/graemlins/smile.gif I certainly don't want to continue on that aggressive level if it makes for a weak approach! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good luck man...how did the hand/rest of the session work out?

[brian0729]

Hey Brian,

I read the post again and I have decided that I like most others probably would have capped here. Though I think your reasons for not are valied ones.

I guess I would change my statement here to I would bet the turn and fold to a raise.

[ThingDo]

Brian,


The only hands that I think I'm ahead of on the flop against a reasonable player that will call two PF, and then call two on the flop are 8x/99/TT/JJ. I think I'm probably ahead of MP here. I think I'm probably betting the turn here as I don't see either the EP or the MP raising on a flush draw to push out a better hand. I don't think a hand will raise you here that doesn't have you beat. However, because you checked the turn and now the EP bet and the MP folds I'm not really concerned about the A. Unless he's the type to call two cold with Aanything on the flop it shouldn't concern you. Now that you've checked the turn you've shown weakness and it wouldn't be that crazy for him to bet one of those hands that he called two cold on the flop with. I think you have enough to call down on the turn, but I think it will save you more bets in the long run by betting the turn here.

[Brian]

Turn: A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, EP bets, MP folds, I call.

River: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, EP bets, I call.

EP has K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

-Brian

[AviD]

EP shouldn't be playing K3s IMO. He caught a dream flop, turn and river. He obviously wasn't going anywhere...but again IMO he shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

Cold calling a (your) raise from EP with K3s is a throw away for me...no doubt about it. So, I doubt he would have folded to your cap, where he would have had to cold call another raise and re-raise.