Min-Raise Maniacs

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

How do y'all deal with the Min-Raise Maniac? I'm sure you've all seen him. He's the guy who plays almost every pot, and always makes the minimum raise, regardless of whether he has KK or J4o.

I had one of these to my right last night in a SNG, and it was very frustrating. My general rule is to not cold call even a minimum raise with marginal hands like KQo, weak suited Aces, suited connectors, and the like, unless there are two or more callers ahead of me (for pot odds, and also as cover from a steal-raise behind me).

Of course, with the Min-Raise Maniac to my immediate right, those conditions could never be met; I would always be the first cold-caller and exposing myself to a big reraise from someone who'd limped from early position on a monster. So I laid down several hands that I would otherwise have come in with, a couple of which would have hit big and put me in a strong chip position.

As it was, I never got strong enough cards that I felt comfortable with the cold-call, so I went out 14th or some such, having never really felt comfortable and having never put anything together to get myself into a strong position.

Here are two example hands:

Blinds are 15/30. My stack is around T1420 or so, MRM (Min-Raise Maniac) is currently at about T1850, though he went up and down like a roller coaster throughout. To my left is VBS (Very Big Stack, T4200); he just busted two players when he called ATs all the way to the river on a flush draw and hit the A to have top pair. Three of the other players also seem to be frustrated with MRM and are thus playing marginal hands for big action, so the table is difficult to read and predict.

I'm in the small blind with Q9s. This is a hand with which I would normally: (a) complete if there were limpers; (b) cold-call a small raise if there were two-plus callers; or, (c) steal-raise if it were passed around to me.

Instead, there are four limpers, including two of the players who are very frustrated with MRM and have played back at his minimum raises before. MRM, of course, makes it T60. Well, I'd like to play my Q9s -- even for this minimum raise -- but it just seems too likely that one of the two frustrated players is going to fire back at MRM ... and I don't want to play Q9s vs. a huge raise. So I muck.

Flop is Q-6-4, with the 6 and 4 of my suit. I'd have been ahead in the hand from the start, would have hit the flush at the river versus a lower flush, and probably have doubled up. Moreover, given the way the post-flop action went, I'd definitely have stayed with this hand. Instead, I'm sitting there muttering to myself.

Ten hands later, with blinds of 25/50, I'm on the button with J9o and a stack of about T1350. The same dynamics still hold, except the other frustrated are now starting to play very ragged.

J9o is a hand I'd call with from the button if there were limpers or a small raise and two or more callers. It's a hand I can play well if it hits, and get away from cheaply if it misses, because I'm on the button.

Again, there are three limpers -- including two of the most frustrated players -- and MRM makes it T100 in the CO. And again, not wanting to get in the middle of a peeing contest between these frustrated players and MRM, I muck.

The flop is Q-10-8. I'd have flopped the nut straight, and it would have held up. What's more, MRM had QT and I would have busted him because I had him covered at the time. But yet again, I'm left sitting and muttering.

Was I too cautious?

Cris

[Che]

In general, my approach to MRMs is to treat their min-raises the same way I would treat a limper, except for playing out of the blinds. There is obviously a big difference between completing for 1/2 a bet behind a limper (or several) and calling a bet and a half. The difference between checking as the BB (and closing the action) versus calling a min-raise with limpers still to hear from is even bigger.

More specifically:

Q9s in the SB: I would complete but I probably won't call, especially if a steal-raise from a limper is likely.

J9o: I will sometimes limp behind several limpers (or a min-raise) on the button when the blinds are small relative to my stack. However, 100 of my 1350 is too much to call with that hand if there is any chance of getting raised off my hand and not seeing the flop.

So, you played both hands the same way I would have played them given your description of the situation. I would also have been frustrated that MRM raised instead of limped and been even more frustrated when I saw those flops since I would have played those hands without the minraises.

However, hindsight is always 20/20. I'm guessing that the longrun cost of making these calls and then folding to a steal-raise preflop or when the flop misses far outweighs the benefit of hitting a miracle flop like QT8 once in a blue moon.

[Schmed]

one thing I like to do to guys like that, (I think of them as nuiscance raisers), if they are directly on my right is try and isolate them with hands that work well heads up. I also would call any of his mini raises with hands that hit big. I would have called with the q9s but folded the j9o...(I do like that hand though but only really play it when it's short...or suited.).

I find that people who get frustrated and start coming back at a maniac maniacally with garbage like A9s wind up actually helping the guy. It's in a guy like that's best interest to get it heads up. If people would generally just play him like he's a kill button, (he's going to double the blinds every time), he'll screw himself out of the tourny.

On the other hand I am leery of the mini raiser in general. I notice that some players will mini raise their big pairs. That way they aren't announcing their hands yet they thin the field. Had a guy earlier mini raise me in the BB, ironically I had the j9o, I called for one bet, we were heads up, I get my 9, then my J and busted his q's out.

[PrayingMantis]

Hey cris,

I think I play in smaller buy-in tourneys than yours, and where I play there are many MRM, sometimes 3-4 to a table. But I'm not sure they are the same as the ones you describe: they usually limp, but if they have a really good hand, they raise the minimum. So they limp with any A, but raise the minimum with AA, AK. Sometimes it's very funny to play against them, because you just know exactly what they have, especially if it's QQ, for some reason.

The funniest are those who min-raise AA PF, the flop is rags, and for some reason they become really shy, and wait to the river to make the smallest re-raise to a min-bet of some other clown, then proudly show their AA, that have just lost to Q3 on a board of 943Q2. Yes, it IS sad.

That's it,


PrayingMantis

[CrisBrown]

Thanks to Che, Schmed, and Praying Mantis for the replies. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've thought about this some more and I think given my table position (immediately to the left of MRM), I was just in a difficult situation.

Essentially, what an MRM does is create a Bigger Blind for each hand. Limps from other players become antes (or small blinds) and then the MRM puts in the Bigger Blind. That strategy changes the structure of the game, and it forces the game to play faster because the blinds are bigger. So in general, the correct response is to tighten up on the drawing hands, play big hands more aggressively, and steal the limps/calls.

On the other hand, because he was creating a Bigger Blind and I was to his immediate left, I was effectively UTG on every hand, and I'm limited to playing the kinds of hands and in the ways I would play from UTG. So in a structure that rewarded aggression and bold plays ... I was out of position and forced to play defensively.

Put the two together and about all that could have rescued me would be to catch one or two big hands that I could play aggressively and with confidence, and hopefully bust him, or sit ultra-tight and wait for someone else to bust him for me.

Other than that, I really had no choices, I don't think.

Thanks for the replies, again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cris

[DOTTT]

Hi Cris,
I was wondering if any of the 4 limpers played back at his min. raise. Here's what I would've done in your spot. With 4 limpers and a min raise I myself would've raised MRM instead of waiting for someone else to do it. Here's why, it seems to me that you've established a pretty tight image at the table and a raise coming from you would definitely get some people to fold marginal hands. Now I realize that you don’t want to be raising here with Q9 in the small blind, but you have to mix up your game a little when you’re facing a Min-Raise maniac.
As for the J9 hand I think I would've folded as well, sure you missed a monster, but think of all the times you would be avoiding trouble just by laying it down.

I would also like to add that I play min. raisers differently depending on the notes I have on the player. If I know them to min. raise with monster hands, I'm going to throw away a lot of hands that I would normally play. On the other hand if I know the player to be very loose, I'm going to play back at him with some marginal hands. I've found that to be the best way to deal with these Min-Raise maniacs.