98o in the CO

[devinthedude]

Party 5/10, loose passive, 10 handed.

3 callers to the dude in the CO. There has been only 1 PFR in the 15 minutes that I have been at the table, so against my better judgement, I decide I can sneak in with my 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Button folds (yay!), SB calls, BB checks. 6 players, 6SB to the the flop.

Flop comes down:

2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Great, I have top two, and there are some draws out.

It is checked around to me. With the number of draws out here I bet. SB checkraises, BB folds, UTG and UTG + 1 call 2 cold, player between us folds, I 3-bet, SB caps, UTG and UTG + 1 call 2 more cold!

SB has been solid so far, but I am not sure what to make of the cap. It sounds like it could be a set of deuces, I am praying for Ax /images/graemlins/heart.gif. The other two are complete fish, they could have anything, probably some kind of BS draw.
11 BB to turn

Turn is 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif
[2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets out, fish call, I raise, sb 3-bets, one fish folds, other calls 2 more cold. (Do I have to raise here even though I think I'm behind? Should I have capped?)

River 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif
[2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif] 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Not the worst card for me, but the fish could have made some kind of ridiculous straight or even flush.

SB bets out again. The fish folds (whew!). Obviously I can't fold with the 22BB pot, so I decide to just call. (anybody raise here?)

What did SB have, and other than the pretty bad pre-flop call, how well did I play the hand? All comments appreciated.

[JohnShaft]

Dev. 98o after 3 limpers? Ugh. I don't think there's a spot (out of the blinds) I'd play with this hand.

I think this is really ugly.
And I'm not even going to look at the rest of the hand.
I'm not a great believer in recommending how to dig yourself out of a hole you've dug yourself in.

[WillMagic]

I have to say, when I saw the title I was sure you were posting the blind after just sitting down. You should never, under any circumstances play this hand...and you need to work on your discipline.

Getting past that, your play on the flop is fine.

Your play on the turn is correct. Calling the three-bet is correct.

The call on the river is fine.

SB has 22.

Fold preflop.
Fold preflop.
Fold preflop.

Will

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
You should never, under any circumstances play this hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even in the BB with an unraised pot? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, in my quest to learn - wouldn't this be a reasonable hand (not great, I'll admit) with which to see the flop if you have position, can expect to see it for only 1 bet, and there are a good number of limpers already in the pot?

I understand that many if not most 2+2ers would fold 98o in the CO, but if I'm reading it correctly that does seem to be much tighter than S&M's advice for this hand.

[BigEndian]

How do you play a flop of:

9/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

It's checked to you (since you have position...) and you are check-raised by the immediate person to your right after two other callers? Can you lay it down?

You could be effectively drawing dead, playing to 3-outs, or you could be seeing aggression by a player on a big draw who is building the pot with other players trapped for a bet. And then there are the two callers, what are they playing? An 8 on the turn or river could put you in a very bad situation.

This is a difficult hand to play with most flops that touch you.

[edit] changed the flop to be even more problematic.

- Groove

[Bob T.]

Ok, loose preflop, but you knew that.

On the flop, you are hoping that your opponent, the 9 hearts with another heart. or maybe a combination flush/straight draw. When he three bets the turn, I start thinking that a set is more likely. As you said, in this big pot, you have to call him down. So OK after the flop. You might consider just calling the turn bet.

[LetsRock]

98o is a no-brainer fold. YOur hand is a perfect example of the kind of trouble you can get in with about the best flop you could hope for. (Sure there are better flops, but any better and you'll get 0 action anyway.)

Don't put yourself in this problem to begin with.

[Saborion]

This is an easy fold pre-flop.
To quote Abdul Jalib, "A hold'em player cannot live by straight draws alone."
If it was suited, then it`s a different story.

[badboy]

Well, this is what happens when you play bad cards. If SB is solid then this probably isn't some kind of dumb move. I'd put him on trips. Still, high pocket pair is a possibility. I know it sounds crazy for a solid player not to raise preflop with a high pocket pair but you said only one person had raised preflop in the last 15 minutes. Maybe he had Queens and was afraid of an overcard or something. When it didn't fall, he bet strong. Strange hand.

[scotnt73]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an easy fold pre-flop.
To quote Abdul Jalib, "A hold'em player cannot live by straight draws alone."
If it was suited, then it`s a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol im glad i read all the responses before posting because i was about to post this exactly. Every since ive read that line in WLLH i hear it in my head every time a situation comes up right before i fold.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you play a flop of:

9/images/graemlins/heart.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

It's checked to you (since you have position...) and you are check-raised by the immediate person to your right after two other callers? Can you lay it down?


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point - there are a lot of "pretty good" flops that will only cost money. With a check-raise, I'd have to muck this but I probably wouldn't even bet the flop in the first place so no check-raise possible. Even then, as you say, there are turn/river cards which look decent but would just suck me in for more bets.

[devinthedude]

First of all, I knew I was probably going to get flamed for calling pre-flop. However, I did go back to HPFAP and checked the hand groupings. 98o is a Group 7 hand, which according to HPFAP can be played in late position if there is no raise, especially given the texture of the game.

I knew the call was questionable, but I was a little surprised to see how many people told me it was absolutely terrible.

If the game was typical or worse for me, of course I would not play the hand, but like I said, the game was loose passive, and I was 97% sure I could get in for one bet.

Why is calling one bet with position worse than completing in the SB with 98o, or is that just downright terrible also? How much worse is it than calling with KXs in that spot? Keep in mind again that this is Party loose/passive 5-10.

I am here to learn, so flame away

[scotnt73]

you arent being flamed. This is a discussion board and we are trying to help you.

[badboy]

Interesting point...I guess is wasn't terrible but I still wouldn't do it. In general, you should tighten up a bit in loose games and not play the low ranked hands. Remember low ranked hands can get you into trouble. I feel that you can make plenty of money in loose games with premium hands. What do you think?

[Nottom]

FWIW, I don't think the limp is nearly as bad as everyone wants it to be. Its about on par with limping UTG with QJo IMO, its not a good play but its not like you are playing 93s and you can likely get away with it in the right game.

As for the rest of the hand, I think you played it fine. If the fish weren't hanging around maybe you could slowdown, but the extra money they are putting in the pot makes it a bit harder to slowdown.

[Bob T.]

I was able to find where it said that you could open raise with group seven hands in LP, but I didn't see where it said that group seven hands were playable for 1 bet. If you can find that for me, I'd like to know, because I would like to read that section.

Apart from that, I think the call in this position was loose, but not terrible. I sometimes play hands like this on the button in multiway pots if the blinds are not frequent raisers.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is calling one bet with position worse than completing in the SB with 98o,

[/ QUOTE ]

The implied odds you get off half a bet from the SB are generally huge. That is not the case when you put in a full bet.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I was able to find where it said that you could open raise with group seven hands in LP, but I didn't see where it said that group seven hands were playable for 1 bet. If you can find that for me, I'd like to know, because I would like to read that section.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pg 37 - Last paragraph. HEFAP 2nd Ed.
"If you are dead last - that is, you are on the button - and there are already callers, you can play hands in Groups 1-7."

[Bob T.]

Thanks.

[devinthedude]

SB had TT, and I took down a nice 23BB pot. I have to say that I very rarely play a hand like 98o, in fact, it was the only time according to pokertracker that I voluntarily put money in with this hand. But I was looking thru my pokertracker, and the hand looked interesting at the time. Thanks 4 the comments.

--the dude