Calling the flop when your small pair miss

[JeffO]

Looking for some help here, is this OK to call the flop here? Party Poker 3/6 I'm the BB and am dealt 22. EP1 opens, EP2 raises, MP2 calls, I call and EP1 calls. Four see the flop T 5 Q rainbow. I check, EP1 bets, EP2 calls, MP calls, and I CALL?
Here is my thinking. I'm 23-1 dog to catch my set and there's already 33 dollars in the pot (11 SB) before I call the flop. So if I were to catch my set on the turn the pot would have to reach $69 for this call to be correct.

I've been calling these type of hands if the pot is already large and the board is not too scary (flush or straight draws), and I am last to act so that I cannot be raised. Is this a good call or am I losing money on these type of calls?

The turn was a 7, I checked and it was bet and raised before I folded.

[rkiray]

Way too loose a call. Maybe if there were 19 or 20 sbs in pot. But you have less than 1/2 the pot you need.

[crockpot]

i don't like this call. first of all, hitting your set does not equate to winning the pot. with a preflop raise and several callers, it is not impossible for a set to be out already. also, the river card could easily give someone a big straight or even a backdoor flush. you can call this bet with a little less than 23:1 odds, but 11:1 is not a little less. you need to average six big bets won every time you hit your set, and this number does not factor in the times you hit and lose.

[lil']

People who make this call are almost immediately pegged as fish by me. You have nowhere near the odds to call this.

[JeffO]

I'm actually getting 11-1 before the flop and 15-1 after the flop but I understand what your saying about it needing to be closer to 20-1. THANKS

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 23-1 dog to catch my set and there's already 33 dollars in the pot (11 SB)

[/ QUOTE ]

So your a 23-1 dog and are getting 11-1 on your call. I think you already know the answer to this.

[JeffO]

Once again I'm getting 15-1 after the flop. If its wrong to call here then I thank you for your help. Its 11-1 before the flop.

[MrBlini]

[ QUOTE ]
Once again I'm getting 15-1 after the flop. If its wrong to call here then I thank you for your help. Its 11-1 before the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]You don't have strong implied odds postflop because there is a chance you're drawing all but dead to a higher set, and the extra bets you'll get when you do make your set will be largely offset by the times you lose the hand spectacularly, either to another set or to a rivered straight. You need good pot odds: the pot needs to be offering you very close to 22.5:1 or you're just throwing money in the pot for somebody else to win. Even 15:1 is not close enough for me. I think you'll find that your description of the hand would give the pot odds at this stage as 11.5:1.

The preflop call seems OK if you don't think EP1 is capable of a limp-reraise, ie. if EP1 is passive. I don't see how you're getting 11:1 preflop, though. I count 6.5:1 when it's back to you, with a probable 7.5:1 if EP1 calls. That's enough for me to try to make the set, a 7.5:1 proposition that's likely to carry a little more profit from the implied odds. (If I think EP1 is the type to limp-reraise, this is an easy fold. If I call and EP1 does limp-reraise and it comes back two to me, it's also an easy fold, and maybe even for just one back to me.)

Did someone post dead and fold preflop, or are your odds calculations way off? If it's the latter, maybe you should practice calculating pot odds.

[rkiray]

I was only talking about the preflop play. You have 11-1 odds when you are a 22.5-1 dog. You may claim implied odds could get this down to 19 or 20, no way 11. As others have pointed out you should probably be more concerned with reverse implied odds and need more like 25 sbs in the pot (or more). The 15-1 is irrelevent since you have no business being there.

[Mike Gallo]

People who make this call are almost immediately pegged as fish by me.

Ouch /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

You have nowhere near the odds to call this.

Thats all you had to say /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Lil,

Next time give the poster a more detailed answer as to why he made a bad call.

I do happen to agree with you, however I usually tend to act more gentle during the holiday season /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[lil']

How's this.

People who make this call are almost immediately pegged as fish by me.
Merry Christmas!

Love,
lil' /images/graemlins/grin.gif