Hand To Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Here's an interesting hand I played this evening in a $60-$120 game at The Bellagio.

I'm on the button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It's passed to me, I raise, and both blinds call. Now to understand the hand, the player in the big blind is someone who plays too loose and aggressive, thinks he a great player, and thinks he plays much better than I do.

The flop comes K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. It's checked to me, I bet, the small blind folds, the player in the big blind check raises, and I call.

The turn is the 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif. The player in the big blind bets and I call.

The river is the 7/images/graemlins/club.gif. The player in the big blind bets, I raise, and he folds.

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

[mike l.]

now that's an interesting hand! why didnt you raise the flop or the turn mason? (i wouldve raised the turn in case he was on a draw).

[doggin]

Mason, the player in the big blind would have surely called
your raise on the river had he had a K or a T, not sure
on the 8. I would have put him on the flush draw which you
both missed, or he very much could have been on a straight
draw which the river card was THE perfect card for you.
With his after flop check raise, my brain would have
automatically started screaming Kings or Tens. What was
your thinking when he check raised you?
I don't mean to turn this around, but would you please
comment on my thinking here?
Thanks, pd

[mike l.]

"With his after flop check raise, my brain would have
automatically started screaming Kings or Tens. What was
your thinking when he check raised you?"

at most mid limits games out west a lot of players checkraise the flop heads up against possible steal raise w/ any sort of draw, and sometimes nothing at all as well as with all sorts of pairs. it's just the aggressive way it's done. steal/resteal.

[doggin]

Thanks Mike

[JohnShaft]

Mason, you raised the River.

I'm interested in:
1. What worse hands are going to call you?
2. What better hands are going to fold?

[johnd]

I dont understand the river raise...unless u r setting him up for later, or you think he will call with bottom pair or ten smaller kicker. There are some 8-16 players i would make that play with, but only because they are likly to reraise with bottom pair and call me down with A high. If u could explain it would be helpful.

[Mike Gallo]

Mason,

I think the key to understanding how you played the hand comes from this statement... Now to understand the hand, the player in the big blind is someone who plays too loose and aggressive, thinks he a great player, and thinks he plays much better than I do.

The big blind most likely thinks that you have made a play for the blinds. He will defend and attempt to outplay you on the later streets.

It's checked to me, I bet, the small blind folds, the player in the big blind check raises, and I call.

Since he knows you play well, and he thinks he plays better than you, he thinks if you didnt have a hand, he can pick up the pot with a check raise. You called, ok he must think, Mason might have something. I will fire another bullet on the river. If Mason raises, I have to fold.

The turn is the 7. The player in the big blind bets and I call.

Now he must think, Ok, Mason never calls I might play better than him, but Masons calls scare me more than his bets or raises.

The river is the 7. The player in the big blind bets, I raise, and he folds.

Dang it, he thought, why couldnt I have hit my Queen as he tosses his AJ away in disgust.

I like the river raise. I put your opponent on a baby pair or AJ off suit with the Aces of diamonds. If he had AJ diamonds he most likely would have reraised preflop.

[Mike Gallo]

why didnt you raise the flop or the turn mason? (i wouldve raised the turn in case he was on a draw).

Because then his opponent would put Mason on the flush draw and not a hand.

Remember, this player thinks that he plays better than Mason.

[lil']

This seems like one of those situations where you know a check raise is coming, so you have to decide ahead of time how you will respond to it.

I would usually raise before the river. I think you are ahead on the flop most of the time, so the turn and river being total bricks means nothing has changed, and you can pretty much be sure you are winning when you raise the river. The reason I would raise earlier is because I want to charge a draw, and a pair of tens isn't a hand I just want to sit on.

[Mike Gallo]

Mason,

Now to understand the hand, the player in the big blind is someone who plays too loose and aggressive, thinks he a great player, and thinks he plays much better than I do.

What makes this player think he plays better than you? Because he has an overblown ego and not concept of reality, or because has he seen you make what he would call a dubious play that he doesnt comprehend as a good play.

[glen]

I think 60-120 can be considered high limit and not middle-limit, but if anything that just amplifies your point. . .

[glen]

I think since he is loose aggressive and thinks he plays better than Mason, he might pay off with worse hands figuring that Mason might be bluffraising a missed draw on the river, since the seven is seemingly innocuous, Mason showed no earlier strength. The player description entails that Mason has no reason to believe he is behind in the first place. Given the range of hands he would check-raise in this spot, there are no overcards that would make him get away from his hand or not improve it with an added gutshot, and since he is going to showdown anyways, might as well let him fire away at the pot. also, great players sometimes like to make "great" laydowns. The player description doesn't sound like he would, but as Eli Cash might say from The Royal Tenebaums, "Every knows Lags don't like to fold the river for a bet, but what this post presupposes is: maybe he would?". . .

[cepstrum]

hi lil -

there are plenty of good reasons for mason to wait until the river to raise.

first, he may have far the better hand and does not want to force a lesser hand to fold on the flop or turn.

second, mason may be up against a hand like a king, against which he does not want to put in a second bet - because he will almost certainly then have to put in a third, and the reraise from a loose-aggressive, better-than-you opponent may not yield any useful information.

third, mason has no inclination to "charge the draw" on any street. there is no indication that the opponent is on a draw; further, if the opponent is on a draw, he has already charged _himself_ by betting the turn. raising him here just clues him in.

finally, there is one and only one "safe" street to raise as far as not getting reraised by a better hand, and that is the river. even loose-aggressive players will fear that mason has slowplayed a set or ace-king when he waits until the river to raise. so even if the opponent has a k, he will not reraise. on a good day, he may even fold ace-ten or a bad king, or call with ace-high or a pair of 8s, a worse ten.

the most important aspects, imho, are that we don't want to force a worse hand to fold before the river, and we don't want the loose-aggressive opponent to 3-bet under any circumstances.

good luck

cepstrum

[Mike Gallo]

the most important aspects, imho, are that we don't want to force a worse hand to fold before the river, and we don't want the loose-aggressive opponent to 3-bet under any circumstances.

Excellent points.

[TheLoser]

[ QUOTE ]
why didnt you raise the flop or the turn mason? (i wouldve raised the turn in case he was on a draw).

Because then his opponent would put Mason on the flush draw and not a hand.

Remember, this player thinks that he plays better than Mason.

[/ QUOTE ] Wouldn't this be all the more reason to raise the turn and possibly get paid off by a small PP or ace high on the river if a diamond doesn't hit?

[Mike Gallo]

Wouldn't this be all the more reason to raise the turn and possibly get paid off by a small PP or ace high on the river if a diamond doesn't hit?

I cannot speak for MM, however I would not like to face a reraise here.

[cepstrum]

just something to think about: there are also 6 other q-t that opponent could have. when opponent does have q-t, not raising is a terrible play.

good luck

cepstrum

[adrianus]

Mason,

I understand your play until the river. What would you do if he reraised the river? I guess you made that play for future value. If not then I think calling is the best play.

If you thought your hand was good the whole way (river raise) why not raise the turn instead? I personally like raises with a oke/good hand drawing to a very good hand.

Gr. Adrianus

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I see no real debate on the flop. While reraising may have been a consideration, I would tend towards just calling the flop check-raise. You have a great draw, plus you very well may have the best hand, no need to slow him down yet.

I like the turn call. Raising the turn would either get you called (or reraised) by a better hand, or get a worse hand, one that you probably want in the pot, to fold(barring something like Ad7d).

The river gets interesting. You may bet/raise the river for two reasons, to get a worse hand to call, or get a better hand to fold. It's unlikely a worse hand will call here, but I suppose there's a slim chance he might have JT, or something like that, and call. So what about getting a better hand to fold? Will he fold a king here? I kinda doubt it, but maybe. What about AT? That's a significant possibility, as it really looks like you have at least kings up.

The other possibility I see is that the river raise will have future psychological value, even if you knew he wouldn't call it and was totally bluffing. Raising him on the river might get him to play more timidly against you in the future, especially since he thinks he is hot stuff.

al

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
thinks he a great player, and thinks he plays much better than I do.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds personal. I'll let you guys fight it out. Round one, MM.

[mike l.]

if you look at mason's hand and think about the spectrum of hands loose aggressive bb can have you will see that raising the turn is certainly the correct play. mason's hand can stand a reraise and he may want to 4 bet the turn against this sort of player. punishing the bb when hero has the best of it should be a primary objective in a heads up hand like this. it's a very profitable way to play. anything less is pussy and will leave behind all sorts of money.

[mike l.]

"I think 60-120 can be considered high limit and not middle-limit, but if anything that just amplifies your point. . ."

it's right on the cusp i think. just as 10-20 would be right on the cusp between low limit and mid limit. what with inflation, the notion of what constitutes higher limits is constantly changing. mason's declaration that an expert player makes at least $30 an hour also must be changed i think. i think $40 an hour is more realistic.

[Mike Gallo]

it's a very profitable way to play. anything less is pussy and will leave behind all sorts of money.

How do you mean this exactly? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ACPlayer]

More importantly he may fold if he has nothing. Chances are he is planning to bet all the way on this board, to fold Mason's flush or straight draw.

[Duke]

The big blind will check-raise that flop with any pair and any draw. Your ten is likely the best hand. If he had a king he'd probably slow play. You let him continue with his bluff, since you likely had the better of the draw as well (aggressive BB would re-raise with a suited ace) you let him keep betting.

Good play. Raising the river when the flush hit might even get a 3-bet out of this guy. I don't know who he was, though, so I can't say for certain.

~D

[Duke]

He's got the better draw.

~D

[Vehn]

I totally agree with mike l. I think this is a clear turn raise and I fail to see why you would not attempt to charge him to chase his "overcards" to your pair of tens (yes I'm aware only the ace or jack is a clean out for him) or his gutshot or open ended straight draw. I can see why you wouldn't reraise the flop but to not raise the turn here is a terrible mistake in my opinion. You're probably ahead, there's numerous draws/overcards that can beat you, charge him to suckout on you. If he 3-bets the turn, good for him: see you at the showdown.

Seeing that he didn't I see no reason at all to raise the river. Do you think you have the best hand, or not? Do you think he'll call with a worse hand here very often? Do you think he'll fold a better hand ever? Why would you let him draw out for cheap on the turn? Ugh.

[leon]

Interesting hand. A case can be made for semibluffing/value raising the turn. Of course, you lose a bet if he dumps here and would have fired at you on the river.

Concerning the title of the post- I don't like the raise. He should call you with a better 10, will certainly call with a king and 3 bet anything stronger. Hell, he might even 3 bet a king. It's pretty tough for a worse hand to call you here. About the only conceivable hand he can call with that you beat is a worse 10, MAYBE an 8. You know the player, obviously, but this seems like a bad raise. I'd have called one more time.

Mason, did you raise the river b/c a) you thought a worse hand would call, b) a better hand would fold, or c) you knew he would fold, but wanted to send a message to him to stop firing at you?

Leon

[leon]

but if you could still tell us your thinking here Mason I'd be nice.

Thanks

Leon

[adios]

Ok the raise on the river seems like the most debatable play. I'm thinking that you really didn't want to show your opponent your hand.

[TJSWAN]

the "results" are the same and MM's opponet folds right there on the turn? Then he loses a BB, no?? The other day I raised on an open ended straight draw on the flop from mp to charge any flush draws 2 bets and it was folded around to the ep bettor who also folded. Ooops /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Based on Mason's image if he raised the turn it will most
likely be game over right there.


Tim

[Vehn]

Why ever raise then if you're afraid of "losing" bets?

p.s. players like this HATE to fold to turn raises here.

[J_V]

You are not making much sense. When you raise an open-ended straight draw you really aren't charging the flush draws anything. This doesn't make sense. You are really charging yourself the maximum.

[adios]

"Raising the river when the flush hit might even get a 3-bet out of this guy."

I panicked for a second and thought I'd misread Mason's post. Are you stating if a flush card would have hit? According to Mason one didn't.

[Inthacup]

The other day I raised on an open ended straight draw on the flop from mp to charge any flush draws 2 bets and it was folded around to the ep bettor who also folded. Ooops


Are you not happy about this? If there's 2 flush cards on the flop and you have an open ended straight, you have either 6 or 7 outs left depending on whether you have a flush card.

In the situation you described, everyone folding is IDEAL. You're drawing to less outs than anyone holding a 4 flush draw.



Cup

[Could it be]

Nice read on MM

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, you raised the River.

I'm interested in:
1. What worse hands are going to call you?
2. What better hands are going to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am wondering the same thing. I don't see the point in the river raise at all.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see why you would not attempt to charge him to chase his "overcards" to your pair of tens

[/ QUOTE ]

It might be that he can't fold to a 3-bet, because of the flush draw, so he doesn't want to raise and charge himself more if he is behind, or fold a worse hand if he is ahead.

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing that he didn't I see no reason at all to raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

He will split with any other Ten, so a raise might make a win out of a split pot and he can fold to a reraise on the river, now that his flush hasn't hit.

[Vehn]

Of course he can't fold to the 3-bet. My point is if he is so confident he has the best hand on the river when he raises with middle pair, board kicker, he should raise the turn to charge the big blind to draw out on him.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is if he is so confident he has the best hand on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't that confident, that's why he waits. On the river the risk/reward changes, now he can raise and fold to a reraise. On the turn he can't fold to a reraise so the risk of raising is greater.

[Vehn]

I doubt he would have folded to a reraise. Lets see if he answers that question but if he says yes I'd be surprised.

[Duke]

No it didn't. But the guy would pound him again if he did hit his possible worse flush.

~D

[Could it be]

"Now to understand the hand, the player in the big blind is someone who plays too loose and aggressive, thinks he a great player, and thinks he plays much better than I do."

This information would indicate he is trying to out play you, u knew this and made him pay for it. Nice job.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hi Mason,

Based on what you described here, it would appear that the BB may have picked up a flush draw or open ender and the checkr-raise on the flop was for deception.

I do not understand that raise on the river. My guess is that if you felt the BB had a King or better he would have check-raised the turn instead of the flop.

The raise on the river doesn't make sense to me. If he is loose aggressive and has a King or ten he will call your raise and you risk losing 2 big bets to only gain 1 big bet.

Perhaps you could elaborate on this play more as I am very interested in why did it.

Thanks

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

Generally, I would raise either the flop or the turn with this hand. But sometimes you should play your hand differently. Part of the reason for this is to occasionally mix up your play, but sometimes your opponent can change what normally would be correct strategy. Of course when that happens, any one else who sees your strange play may attribute it to you just mixing up your play, so you get the best of both worlds.

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi MG:

It's not so much that the guy thinks he plays great, it's the fact that he does play well enough to realize this given the board that is present.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

I think your post is an example of not thinking a hand through all the way. David and I have referred to this as chess thinking.

Now let's suppose everything you say is true. It still might be better to play the hand differently depending on the possible results that you might get. If this result includes getting your opponent to occasionally throw away a better hand on the river, that might be a better strategy than what you suggest.

best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi AC:

While he may be planning to bet a very weak hand all the way, and I would certainly not want to stop that, his betting won't get me to fold my flush or straight draw.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi dog:

The key to this hand is that while this person has an over inflated view of his skills, he does have some poker skills. By playing the hand the way I did, it can appear to him that I trapped him. Also, over the years I have noticed that these big ego players are capable of making some big laydowns. So yes, I think he can fold an AT here, and possibly a king with a weak kicker. Also, if he calls, there's some chance he will call with a weak ten which he is betting for value on the river. So I just might get the best of both worlds.

best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Glen:

I agree. $60-$120 is high limit, and the game can be very aggressive at times.

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Vehn:

This is mostly answered in my other posts. But by raising the turn he'll probably pay off with a weak king or AT because he can see all the possible draws with this board. But by raising the river, his only decision is whether I'm raise bluffing or not.

Now here is where a real poker play was made. I believe that since he thinks he's a much better player than I am, and furthermore, I believe that he thinks I know this, he also believes that I'm probably scared to death to be in the pot against him. Now how likely is your opponent to raise bluff you when he's scared to death?

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Vehn:

You need to rethink this post. The raise on the river isn't done out of confidence my pair of tens is the best hand. It is done because in this unique situation, I believe it will maximize my expectation. See the difference?

best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi John:

See my other posts.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like one of those situations where you know a check raise is coming, so you have to decide ahead of time how you will respond to it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi lil'

I hope everyone reads this for this is exactly right.

As for charging a draw, allowing him to bluff through the river, which he will almost have to do if that's what he check raised with can be pretty expensive.

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi cepstrum:

You made a very good post.

One point that I do disagree on is that as the pot becomes large, I do want a worse hand to fold since many cards can come that will beat a pair of tens.

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi MG:

This is a case of an overblown ego. By the way, that's usually the case in these situations, and sometimes in poker you can use it to your advantage.

Best wishes,
Mason

[elysium]

hi mason
whew.....it's late here. i'm sleeping and typing at the same time.

i like the raise. it looks like a raise that also carries with it a little 'extra calls in the future' potential, and so it has value even if your opponent shows down a stronger hand. it is a value raise in this hand itself too, and you are likely rooting for the call. i don't think that there is a whole lot of difference between calling and raising from an ev point of view, however, against this particular opponent, it should have some hidden ev somewhere in there because this raise helps to make him more predictable in the future.

some opponents exhibit a pretty reliable tell when they are on a draw. this opponent is not exhibiting that tell though however. he has A9 or T9 to JT. he should have called you. it's very surprising that he didn't call. he has a made hand. he's not on a draw. well, we will never know. he's going to relish in the prospect of forever concealing his holding from many, many 2+2 ers, and achieve an albeit small pyrrhic victory.

one thing though mason, these agressives.....whew, they sure can reraise at the drop of a hat. i have a feeling though that this aggressive is one of the better aggressives out there and not maniacally oriented.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi adrianus:

If reraised, the river decision would be tough because I feel that he should be able to reason out that I trapped him.

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Duke:

I think he check raises with a king. He can be fairly sure I'll bet the flop, but can't count on me to bet the turn.

Best wishes,
mason

[mike l.]

"If this result includes getting your opponent to occasionally throw away a better hand on the river, that might be a better strategy than what you suggest."

youre overthinking things. your river raise was unnecessary. you werent folding a better hand. the guy had a draw of some sort on a draw heavy flop. he is a loose aggressive player. you missed a raise on the turn. you should have punished him.

[mike l.]

"Also, if he calls, there's some chance he will call with a weak ten which he is betting for value on the river. So I just might get the best of both worlds."

how so? you would then chop the pot. the board is KTx77.

[andyfox]

Especially when he's been betting on every street. He would reason that you would have either 3-bet the flop or raised the turn with a draw. There's no way he would figure you, an "inferior" player to him, for a raise on the river here without the goods. So he'll lay down A-T, a weak king, even T-8.

[Clarkmeister]

Andy,

My fundamental disagreement with this play stems from the fact that I don't think a king or flopped 2 pair are at all likely holdings for the BB.

On the river, he will lay down a ten, which is a very possible hand, but for that reason I think this play which Mason has described as "mixing it up" should be reserved for an instance when he flopped a draw and missed. NOT when he has a probable best hand with showdown value throughout. This particular hand and situation demands to be played faster, sooner.

Also, I disagree with those who think Mason is "punishing" the too-aggressive player by playing this way. When you have this much the best of it on the flop, you need to hammer at them early and often to stop them from checkraising you light in the future. You don't want to encourage them to keep playing this way because you simply won't make enough hands that enable you to call down.

[mike l.]

[elysium]

hi clark
the only problem with raising an opponent who you think has missed is that you lose the show-down value of calling with a marginal holding. that's as good as raising another marginal with a slightly stronger marginal. but raising a miss......whew, you risk offering an aggressive the right to unnecessarily bluff reraise you costing you your read. you will no longer have any sort of read and be forced to call without really knowing where you stand; awwww, that's the worst. now he might fold. while that looks o.k., you have still allowed an aggressive an opportunity to bluff reraise his busted, but now have not accomplished anything. if mason has exactly kings up anything, the raise of the busted has merit because now mason doesn't like to showdown and knows exactly what his opponent holds whether his opponent reraises or folds. the opponent will never ever call, and if he bluff reraises, mason doesn't lose his read. he still knows that his read is viable. but with less than kings up, you must call, not raise the busted draw. you must never raise the busted draw here.

[andyfox]

Wouldn't playing the way Mason played also serve to discourage them from check-raisng you light and from playing this way?

[J_V]

No, this does not deter a "decent", thinking opponent from raising light. IMO, he either calls with any hand that beats him or he folds feeling like Mason trapped him. He's either calling and showing a winner, and thinking..thanks for the bet, or he's folding convinced he was trapped, and laughing that he got to the river so cheaply with his crap. A thinking player is not going to say, oh well, lost this one....no more raising light for me.

[J_V]

Playing online, I get to play against some of the best in the world and some of the worst, and pretty much everyone in between. In a full session, I might play against 300 different players. I can only think of 2-3 players that I would try this against. And all three are world class players. It's -EV against about 95% of the normal poker population. And finding 4% of those that would makes this play EV is impossible because its very hard to get into the head of bad/mediocre players who call too much but make whim river folds based on god knows what.

I'm in a 100% agreement w/ Clarkmeister. You beat someone into submission by thrashing them with a stick. For me, that's pounding the flop and the turn, not getting overly fancy. You need to save these plays for the best, not players you have no respect for. But based on the way you describe this player, he seems to be pretty good and dangerous to me.

[ACPlayer]

There is an interesting possible sub-text in the first paragraph of your post.

THat is by flat calling the turn your opponent is less likely to put you on a draw as he would expect a semi-bluff raise. If this is the case then he can only be betting the river as a pure bluff or a great hand.

As a corollary, if your opponent has a hand that beats you, it appears that he may have erred by betting the river as he now clearly sets up an "obvious" slowplay raise by you.

[adios]

"I'm in a 100% agreement w/ Clarkmeister. You beat someone into submission by thrashing them with a stick. For me, that's pounding the flop and the turn, not getting overly fancy."

Not sure why and when this is higher EV in the long run. Doubt if too many players at the $60-120 level will roll over very easily especially in defending their blinds but admittedly don't know for sure. In this particular instance the "just in case" play that Mason pulled off seems valid. I still think that not having to show his hand was a major benifit for future hands but definitely could be wrong.

[J_V]

Well, if you plan on making this play often or even once in while I think you will lose money. It would be really wrong to try this play at 10-20 or lower as well.

You're not trying to get your opponents to roll over, you're trying to get them to stop screwing with you by taking control of the hand and trying to take the "missed" pots away from you. You are the button they are rightfully yours.

[Coilean]

It seems that from the flop on, Mason is playing to get a worse hand to continue putting chips in the pot without exposing himself to a reraise from a better hand, with the river raise thrown in to drop a few better or equal hands (any T or KJ). I haven't seen anyone point out yet (although I could easily have missed it) that Mason is only chopping with a weaker T on the river here, so raising the river is definitely not a value play unless he expects to get called by a hand like 98 pretty frequently. Anyway, given how often we have seen Mason simply call down LAG opponents with a probable best hand in these HTTA's, I'm certain that a thinking LAG who plays with Mason regularly will have had ample opportunity to notice this as well. So, Mason's river raise should stand a fair chance of stealing half or all the pot from a weaker T or AT/KJ.

However, I would probably reraise the flop here, just because the LAG guy trying to outplay me might decide to get fancy and reraise the flop or checkraise the turn with a worse hand, which punishes him quite a bit for any overaggressive tendencies, and I think outweighs the risk of losing him when he has a near hopeless hand or of putting in extra chips as a dog. Besides which, you can hardly go wrong getting as much money as possible in the pot on that flop, since you are even favored against many of the hands which are beating you /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

After smoothcalling the flop raise, raising the turn seems almost a moot point: the LAG should bet the river with a busted draw anyway (in hopes that Mason will drop a busted draw containing a higher card), which nets you the same 2 bets you would have gotten if he had called a turn raise and missed the river (and might even save you a bet if he hits his hand). Being reraised on the turn isn't so peachy either, since AT/KJ-T/T7s/K7s/77/J9 are all reasonable possibilities for a LAG defending his BB (although it's hard to see him 3-betting with the AT/KJ), and you're no longer favored against any hands ahead of you. The cases where a turn raise should show a real profit here are when he folds a better hand, folds with more than 5 outs, or will call another bet on the river with a worse hand (assuming you can make that bet), none of which seem especially likely. Anyway, I think either calling or raising on the turn as feels best to you at the time is fine, just be sure not to fold /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Coilean]

How is it "the best of both worlds" if he calls with a weaker T? Wouldn't you prefer that he fold it so that he doesn't win half the pot?

[DanZ]

yes and yes. One additional argument for not reraising the flop (aside from getting killed by a better had, or making him not bluff the river, and making him not fold if a diamond comes) is that you make the pot even bigger.

If you have planned the whole time to raise him on the end given favorable cards coming, your river raise will steal half or all of the pot far less often if you 3 bet the flop, as now there are an extra 1 or 2 big bets in the pot...

Dan Z.

[elindauer]

ok Mason. I can see that you are really driving home the point that against overly aggressive players, passive play can sometimes be best.

I feel like maybe you've taken that a bit too far with this hand though. On the flop, yeah, there are many hands that are ahead of you, if the game ended right here. But you have such a huge draw against almost all of them that at worst you're probably even money. So the standard play of just calling down super-aggressives where your cards are good but not great and free cards aren't too scary isn't as applicable, since your hand is really much stronger than middle-pair-2nd-kicker.

In other words, I'd 3-bet the flop. As for the deception gained by just calling... what deception? Is he going to think you have a made hand, or a draw? You have both, so who cares what he thinks. Either way, he can make big mistakes if the right cards come for you on the turn and/or river.


But let's ignore that for now, and go with your slowish-play. Now the turn is a blank, and you have more motivation of course to just call, since he'll fire again, you're now farther behind if you are behind -and- he'll 3-bet you frequently, which you no longer want. So, call the turn, fair enough.

River pairs the board. Ugh. Now you can be outkicked on your ten, but can't outkick anyone else. Yuck. So you... raise? Bold. Yeah, maybe he'll make the big laydown. Maybe he'll fold a ten. But he'll 3-bet every time he has a seven, and sometimes when he doesn't. You've said this guy is too aggressive, so I guess you're gonna have to pay him off if he makes it 3 bets, right? That won't be much fun.

I concede that this raise might just be sligthly profitable for you here, owing to your opponents penchant for making the big laydown. However, as others have pointed out, your hand does have showdown value, so why not take it? Surely you'll have this same opportunity with a total miss, where his folding a bluff actually nets you the entire pot. Why
choose this spot to start teaching him that big laydowns aren't the key to winning poker? Besides, if you just call, you've now shown him a hand that really connected with the flop, where a little flop check-raise apparently had you scared. That's good. He should get even more aggressive with you after you weakly call and show that down. Which adds all the more weight to your raise when you really miss later. Save this play for a spot where it's really worth something.


Just my opinion... a description of how I understand the game. Far be it from me to think I'm in a position to educate you on how to play 60-120...

[adios]

"You're not trying to get your opponents to roll over, you're trying to get them to stop screwing with you by taking control of the hand and trying to take the "missed" pots away from you. You are the button they are rightfully yours. "

That's my definition of rolling over i.e. if the tactics recommended allow you to do this easily in the future against that opponent they're rolling over.

[Eric P]

Maybe you could explian this to us in your head again. Many people seem to think you missed a bet on the turn. This appears to be true if he's on a draw, but it's not true if he has something like 53 or 77 or 83 or just some no-pair trash hand.

So i see your thinking of just sit there and pull on him on the turn and a raise may lose him and it's very possible he's drawing dead (or EXTREMELY THIN) so i think the other posters are wrong to assume he has a draw or will call a raise on the turn. The river raise is the only other questionable play. I would like to know what your motivation was on it. Was it because you thought you were winning and it was a value bet (most likely) that you wanted action on? Was it because you thought he couldn't call and thus you thought if you raised you would win and wouldn't have to show your hand (which is obviously good, plus you might get called as a winner anyways) or was it to make him fold a better hand like you said it might do (which seems far-fetched, is this player going to lay down K2 here? (i recall the flop or turn having a K)). I think that he will not lay down a K unless he is so obsessed with outplaying you that he realizes his bets were for naught and now wants to try and save face against you and not pay you off. I would imagine it was a combination of about 70% of the first reason and 30% of the second reason. The third reason i don't think would happen, again just based on his description, you know him i don't. But i would like to hear you thought process in detail

[SoBeDude]

This has been an interesting dialogue.

It seems to me, that if this guys fancys himself as a very good player, he's quite likely to make 'fancy' plays.

I'm sure he convinced himself Mason was on a steal with crap. Hence the range of hands he'll 3-bet the flop from the BB, when heads up against a button raiser is quite large.

It seems in this case the probability of Mason's hand being good is fairly high, certainly high enough to call him down.

Now not raising the turn helps squeeze more money out of a player who's probably behind. By raising the flop he's committed himself to betting out the turn and the river. If Mason raises the turn, quite often he loses a bet when his opponent folds.

By raising the river, with what is probably the best hand, he gets the best of both words, possibly getting paid off by a worse hand, or maybe getting a better hand to fold.

And the real beauty here, is since this guy is convinced he's a better player than Mason, he'll do the exact same thing next time as he'll convince himself mason just got 'lucky' this time.

Nice hand

-Scott

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Eric:

If he's on a draw and ends up with something like queen high on the river, he'll bet if I didn't raise on the turn, but check and fold if I did raise the turn. So there's no difference.

Best wishes,
Mason