View Full Version : Vick
Clarkmeister
12-08-2003, 12:57 AM
As brilliant as he is there is no way he can have a productive and long NFL career the way he allows himself to take hits. His frame simply can't handle it, and unless he starts playing smarter, he's going to have many seasons just like this one where he misses a ton of games.
Why can a running back take all those hits running but a quarterback cannot? That being said, he took some big pops tonight.
His running is simply unbelievable.
Josh W
12-08-2003, 03:36 AM
Agreed. One of the best in the game at avoiding hits is Marvin Harrison. For how many catches he makes across the middle, he's always in the game.
Superstars help their team more when they are in the game...
But, damn, he's gonna be fun to watch for 7 games every year.
J
For one thing, a running back is not expected to be involved in every offensive play. If they are banged up you can give them a rest or run a pass, etc.
KJS
But the running backs can't take all those hits. The average career of a running back is quite short. Some exceptional backs last a long time so you notice them. But then there are the Terrell Davises or Gale Sayers who don't last. And a lot of guys who you don't think about.
Thats true. But a running back carries the ball 20-30 times a game where Vick might only carry it 10-12 times a game.
I am not trying to argue that Vick should run a lot. I am just curious why a shot to a QB is somewhat worse than a shot to a running back.
I always thought that it was because if some slow QB decides to run than the defense will just tee off on him. However, with Vick they are just trying to stop him.
Boris
12-08-2003, 01:41 PM
Running backs are generally shorter ( lower center of gravity) and have more muscle mass to protect their frame. Thus they are better protected.
Also, Running backs can play with all sorts of injuries that would take a QB out of the game.
adios
12-08-2003, 02:19 PM
"I am not trying to argue that Vick should run a lot. I am just curious why a shot to a QB is somewhat worse than a shot to a running back."
It's not necessarily but I would think that a QB getting blind sided when they're a sitting duck in the pocket is much worse than taking a blow when running with the ball. Elway did his share of running and managed to have a long carreer. Elway missed some games but not that many over a long career.
"I always thought that it was because if some slow QB decides to run than the defense will just tee off on him. However, with Vick they are just trying to stop him."
I think that's right. I don't know the stats on circumstances that cause the injuries that lead QB's to miss games but I would guess that most of them occur when their protection breaks down and they're hit behind the line of scrimmage.
Sooga
12-08-2003, 07:47 PM
Slightly off topic, but in class today one of my students claimed 'Man, Michael Vick is awesome! He's the best quarterback in the NFL!!' After telling him to quiet down and sit in his seat, I began to think about a couple things:
1) Who IS the best quarterback in the NFL? By this I mean, you have to win 1 game, your defense/offense is already picked out, but you can choose any QB you want (at full health, obviously). Who do you pick?
2) What QB do you want to start a franchise with? Is it Vick? And is it close?
I ask these questions because I'm not really a huge football fan, but I've just recently started to follow it and would like to know your opinions.
Nottom
12-08-2003, 10:50 PM
If I had to win one game, I think I would choose Vick. He is capable of practically winning the game by himself.
Clarkmeister
12-09-2003, 01:11 AM
I think Steve McNair is the best QB in the NFL right now.
If I had to start a franchise I think there are several QB's I'd consider, and really I probabaly couldn't separate several. Guys I'd consider include Vick, McNair, Culpepper, Pennington, Manning and even Bulger.
Josh W
12-09-2003, 04:53 AM
For me, it's McNair, and it's not THAT close. If I scored McNair 100, I don't think anybody else would be above 90.
He's GOOD at everything....good arm (not the single greatest), good runner (not the best), good decision making (maybe the best), the most heart, the toughest (now that Favre is declining)...
Tennessee's offense scores a LOT of points. And they have no 'weapons' outside of McNair...Mason is alright at WR, but no Harrison, Owens, Holt, Moss, Ward, etc. Their TE's are average at best. Their running game is below average.
But their offense as a whole is one of the best.
He's not that old, plays through pain, and just finds a way to get the job done....
J
I would take Manning or maybe McNair. Culpepper is awful and I cannot understand why people think he is a good QB. He single handedly destroyed the Vikings season last year with an unbelievable amount of fumbles and interceptions, with many stupid ones at critical times. He can't hold on to the ball and is prone to bad plays that cost games. Besides, what has he ever accomplished in his 4-5 years in the league. If he was white nobody would be talking about how good he is.
Vick still has a ton to prove. He reminds me of QBs like Stewart who could run and were then deemed a new prototype for the QB of the future. Teams learn to take the run away from them and they sink fast because they can't pass. I think Vick is awesome but he needs to prove his ability through the air as well.
adios
12-09-2003, 11:53 AM
FWIW think Tom Brady is an underrated QB. No offense Pats fans (no pun intended) but the Pats running game isn't all that great and their pass receivers are decent but not superstars IMO (Troy Brown has had great years in the past). I like Branch but I don't think he's one of the elite receivers in the league (maybe he will be). Yet Brady seems to rally the offense when they need to score including THE big one a couple of years ago. All in all I think Brady does an excellent job that doesn't get that much recognition.
Boris
12-09-2003, 01:11 PM
Oh you just had to bring up the race card again didn't you? Culpepper did better than expected his first year that Denny Green threw him into the fire. No doubt he struggled last year.
I think the reason the average football viewer may over rate his skills is that he has such an imposing physical presence and because he can get the ball down field. With receivers like Moss (please don't tell me he's over rated) Culpepper will make alot of highlight reels.
You should give him a chance. It takes several years to become a good QB in this league. Culppepper has the tools but it remains to be seen how he develops.
There is no doubt he has the physical ability. He is just is a terrible QB. 5 years is enough time.
Last week he had a good game. However, it should be noted that he had time to take a nap in the pocket. He also missed on an easy touchdown where Moss had 15 feet on the guy.
The race issue is huge here in the Twin Cities. A big local sports writer basically came out and said anyone who dislikes Culpepper is a racist. Some of us Cullpepper haters took exception to that.
No, I think Moss is an unbelievable receiver - probably the best ever. He is having an incredible year and would do even better with a different QB (like when Gus stepped in an threw to Moss all day long).
Clarkmeister
12-09-2003, 02:01 PM
He's #3 in the league in QB rating. Hardly "terrible". Perhaps their Defense might consider stopping someone and not forcing them to play from behind all the time.
banditbdl
12-09-2003, 03:53 PM
Last season Daunte was a terrible quarterback, leading the NFL in turnovers. He took tremendous strides in the offseason and this season he has been good-to-excellent with only 9 interceptions thrown in comparison to 20 TDs and a 97 QB rating, how much more can you expect out of a guy? Yes, the Vikings have a strong offensive line and running game, but to say that Gus Frerotte is a better QB then Daunte is just laughable. Gus was blowing in the wind with no contract this offseason before the Vikings were able to pick him up late and on the cheap. That says something about what NFL talent-evaluators think of his worth and ability. Daunte on the other hand just signed a 100 million dollar contract. Now I know those long-term NFL contract-figures are bloated and the Vikings most likely overpaid Daunte, but I guarantee if he were unsigned another team would gladly pay Daunte 6 or 7+ million dollars a year to helm their ship, can you say the same for Gus? I'm not saying whoever gets paid more is better player in all circumstances, but when the gap is this enormous its damn strong evidence about what professional NFL talent evaluators think of these two players. Benching Daunte in favor of Gus is flat-out ridiculous. Daunte had 3 40+ yard touchdown yesterday, the first of which came on a damn near perfect throw to Moss. So he missed one, that leaves him 3 for 4 on the day. Everytime Daunte misses one stinking throw all the Vikings fanatics have flashbacks to last year and forget just how good they have it with Daunte, and how far he has come as a QB.
As a Minnesota born and raised Packer-backer I think its funny how unappreciative Vikings fans are of their QB when nearly every outsider looks at Daunte and respects his ability.
Kurn, son of Mogh
12-09-2003, 04:12 PM
Who IS the best quarterback in the NFL?
Although my gut wants to say Payton Manning and I don't like to sound like a homer, consider this.
On a scale of 1-10, the Patriot running backs are a 2.
On a scale of 1-10, the Patriot receivers are maybe a 6.
I'd say the most important stat for a QB is wins.
Long and winding road to a short answer. The best QB in the NFL is Tom Brady.
7-0 in OT, baby.
Perhaps their Defense might consider stopping someone and not forcing them to play from behind all the time.
Do you mean like the way he took the opening drive of the Oakland game and converted into 7 Oakland points in a game where that was the only thing he could not let happen?
His stats are way over inflated and misleading. In all fairness, he did have to go against 2-7 San Diego, 3-7 Oakland, and 3-8 Detroit.
The previous week he lead the offense to +3 net points (when you take away St. Louis taking his fumble 97 yards the other way and when he threw a pick on his own 10 yard line).
One solid game does not a QB make, especially given all the disasters before it.
btw- that is one of the first games he threw the ball deep and outside of one nice pass to Moss the long TDs were gimmies (and he didn't even want one of those).
Clarkmeister
12-09-2003, 09:32 PM
He's got 20 passing TD's to a mere 8 INT's. 2.5:1 is good by any measure. You don't become the 3rd highest rated QB in the NFL because of "one game".
pudley4
12-10-2003, 01:07 AM
QB rating is a horribly overrated, misleading stat. It rewards the short, safe west-coast type passing attacks.
Watch Culpepper some time when he's under pressure - he can't make a decision. He's like a deer in the headlights.
I agree. He does stink and he has to go if the vikes are ever going to make a serious run. The people who think he's good or even competent are getting their analysis from sportscenter highlights of him throwing it in the general vicinity of Moss. That doesn't make a good QB.
Yes. His short passing attack completely took away the deep threat from Moss, until last week.
While most QBs have trouble under pressure, he is far worse than most. If a defensive player even breathes on him he fumbles. The only reason his fumbles are down this year is that he is getting hit a lot less.
And of course, the rating system doesn't really punish a QB for giving away game breaking retarded turnovers.
adios
12-10-2003, 02:33 AM
"QB rating is a horribly overrated, misleading stat. It rewards the short, safe west-coast type passing attacks."
How QB Rating is calculated:
NFL Quarterback Rating Formula
The NFL rates its passers for statistical purposes against a fixed performance standard based on statistical achievements of all qualified pro passers since 1960. The current system replaced one that rated passers in relation to their position in a total group based on various criteria.
The current system, which was adopted in 1973, removes inequities that existed in the former method and, at the same time, provides a means of comparing passing performances from one season to the next.
It is important to remember that the system is used to rate passers, not quarterbacks. Statistics do not reflect leadership, play-calling, and other intangible factors that go into making a successful professional quarterback.
Four categories are used as a basis for compiling a rating:
1. Percentage of completions per attempt
2. Average yards gained per attempt
3. Percentage of touchdown passes per attempt
4. Percentage of interceptions per attempt
The average standard, is 1.000. The bottom is .000. To earn a 2.000 rating, a passer must perform at exceptional levels, i.e., 70 percent in completions, 10 percent in touchdowns, 1.5 percent in interceptions, and 11 yards average gain per pass attempt. The maximum a passer can receive in any category is 2.375.
For example, to gain a 2.375 in completion percentage, a passer would have to complete 77.5 percent of his passes. The NFL record is 70.55 by Ken Anderson (Cincinnati, 1982).
To earn a 2.375 in percentage of touchdowns, a passer would have to achieve a percentage of 11.9. The record is 13.9 by Sid Luckman (Chicago, 1943).
To gain 2.375 in percentage of interceptions, a passer would have to go the entire season without an interception. The 2.375 figure in average yards is 12.50, compared with the NFL record of 11.17 by Tommy O'Connell (Cleveland, 1957).
In order to make the rating more understandable, the point rating is then converted into a scale of 100. In rare cases, where statistical performance has been superior, it is possible for a passer to surpass a 100 rating.
For example, take Steve Young's record-setting season in 1994 when he completed 324 of 461 passes for 3,969 yards, 35 touchdowns, and 10 interceptions.
The four calculations would be:
Percentage of Completions — 324 of 461 is 70.28 percent. Subtract 30 from the completion percentage (40.28) and multiply the result by 0.05. The result is a point rating of 2.014.
Note: If the result is less than zero (Comp. Pct. less than 30.0), award zero points. If the results are greater than 2.375 (Comp. Pct. greater than 77.5), award 2.375.
Average Yards Gained Per Attempt — 3,969 yards divided by 461 attempts is 8.61. Subtract three yards from yards-per-attempt (5.61) and multiply the result by 0.25. The result is 1.403.
Note: If the result is less than zero (yards per attempt less than 3.0), award zero points. If the result is greater than 2.375 (yards per attempt greater than 12.5), award 2.375 points.
Percentage of Touchdown Passes — 35 touchdowns in 461 attempts is 7.59 percent. Multiply the touchdown percentage by 0.2. The result is 1.518.
Note: If the result is greater than 2.375 (touchdown percentage greater than 11.875), award 2.375.
Percentage of Interceptions — 10 interceptions in 461 attempts is 2.17 percent. Multiply the interception percentage by 0.25 (0.542) and subtract the number from 2.375. The result is 1.833.
Note: If the result is less than zero (interception percentage greater than 9.5), award zero points.
The sum of the four steps is (2.014 + 1.403 + 1.518 + 1.833) 6.768. The sum is then divided by six (1.128) and multiplied by 100. In this case, the result is 112.8. This same formula can be used to determine a passer rating for any player who attempts at least one pass.
As you can see yards per attempt is a factor so a QB that completes longer passes will get a higher rating all things being equal. I've tracked the QB rating for many QB's in the past. The thing that will make or break a QB ratings wise is exactly Touchdown Passes vs. Interceptions as Clarkmeister implies. IMO the real flaw in the QB ratings if there is one is that TD passes may be overrated. This has long been a criticism of Favre for instance especially when he played for Holmgren. The Favre detractors claimed that his QB ratings were inflated due to a lot of 1 and 2 yard type TD passes.
If Culpepper does fumble more than the average QB (I don't know if he does) I concede it will not affect his QB ratings. Also a QB's running yards don't contribute to QB ratings.
Personally I think Clarkmeister's is right about Culpepper and the kind of year he's having as well as the Vikings having a crappy defense (especially against the run).
Clarkmeister
12-10-2003, 02:45 AM
Thanks for the validation.
In fairness, Daunte does fumble more than the average QB. This is expected to some extent, as he rushes for more TD's and way more yards than the average QB. This added dimension of his game also is not reflected in the QB ratings.
Yes, something like 25+ fumbles a year adds a dimension to his game not reflected in the rating.
I bet it you looked at his fumbles per hits this year versus last it would be the same.
banditbdl
12-10-2003, 11:17 AM
Daunte has lost 3 fumbles this year and scored 4 rushing TDs. Meaning he has accounted for 24 TDs this season in comparison to 12 turnovers, not to shabby.
13 fumbles in 10.5 games. He is on pace for 20 fumbles.
Note - 6 fumbles were lost, not 3.
Clarkmeister
12-10-2003, 12:23 PM
13 fumbles, lost 6. Almost the exact same as McNair who lost 6 of 12. I guess McNair is a bum too?
pudley4
12-10-2003, 01:20 PM
Let's look at Culpepper vs the rest of the starting QB's in the NFL:
I'd rather have:
Vick (Atl)
Manning (Ind)
Brady (NE)
McNabb (Phi)
McNair (Tex)
I'd rather have Culpepper:
Blake (Ari)
Wright/Boller (Balt)
Bledsoe (Buf)
Delhomme (Car)
Kitna (Cin)
Stewart/Grossman (Chi)
Couch/Holcomb (Clev)
Carter (Dall)
Plummer (Den)
Harrington (Det)
Brooks (NO)
Collins (NYG)
Gannon/Mirer (Oak)
Maddox (Pit)
Brees/Blutie (SD)
Hasselback (Sea)
Garcia (SF)
Johnson (TB)
Ramsey (Wash)
It's a toss-up:
Carr (Hou) (potential)
Leftwich (Jax) (potential)
Green (KC)
Fiedler (Mia)
Pennington (NYJ)
Bulger (StL)
If Favre was completely healthy, I'd take him over Culpepper.
I think we're just looking at him differently. I think he's highly overrated - he's clearly not in the same class right now as McNair, McNabb, Manning, or Brady (and Vick's potential is unbelievable). Culpepper is not an elite quarterback - he's in the 2nd tier. Good, but not great.
adios
12-10-2003, 03:01 PM
"I think he's highly overrated - he's clearly not in the same class right now as McNair, McNabb, Manning, or Brady (and Vick's potential is unbelievable)."
Why is this so clear? Seems like an opinion to me that you haven't backed up with very many if any facts. I'm not pounding the table on Culpepper but it seems to me that he also may not have realized his full potential.
adios
12-10-2003, 03:10 PM
"I agree. He does stink and he has to go if the vikes are ever going to make a serious run. "
Would you rather have Culpepper or Brad Johnson? Would you rather have Culpepper or Trent Dilfer? See where I'm going with this? I'm trying to remember the last team that won a Super Bowl that had a mediocre at best defense and I can't think of one right now. I can remember a few that had a mediocre at best offense though /images/graemlins/smile.gif. IMO if the Vikings want to win a Super Bowl they'll need to get a whole lot better on defense. They can win a Super Bowl with Culpepper IMO but they can't with their current crummy defense.
You be the judge from 2000 on:
McNair: 31 fumbles in last 61 games
Culpepper: 63 fumbles in last 55 games
Clarkmeister
12-10-2003, 04:10 PM
Its pretty clear you have made up your mind regardless of on the field performance. You going back to 2000 is as relevant as me picking out some other arbitrary timeframe. We could go back and forth on it all day long.
You ignore that he's got a 2.5-1 TD-INT ratio when 2-1 is considered outstanding. You tell us that they can't win this year because he's so terrible despite having nearly identical fumble stats to McNair in the year you are talking about.
The Vikings suck because of their defense, not because of their offense. That is a fact. Culpepper may not be the best QB in the league, but he's inarguably top 10 and most would call him top 5. Heck, he's rated 3rd, something that you conveniently dismiss as irrelevant, despite the fact that the top rated QB's look very similar to what most humans would list as the top QB's this year.
What I find amusing is that Vikings fans who complain about not getting the ball deep would rather have Tom "Master of the 3 yard pass" Brady at QB. He couldn't throw the ball deep if his life depended on it.
You going back to 2000 is as relevant as me picking out some other arbitrary timeframe. We could go back and forth on it all day long.
Sorry, but it is completely relevant because it shows that year over year he has been consistently bad when it comes to fumbles. To your point about McNair, I think he is an awesome QB but his play this year is good but not great. I would say so-so, except the have had a way harder schedule that MN and coupled with the fact that he has been winning until he got injured.
You ignore that he's got a 2.5-1 TD-INT ratio when 2-1 is considered outstanding I don't ignore it and I think it is important, but it is only one measure. Again, look at the competition - completely dismal, the team around him including the best reciever maybe ever, his W-L record (5-5) this year, and his continuing fumble problems. Do you think his numbers might be a touch different if he had to face a team like Baltimore or New England twice a year instead of Detroit?
The Vikings suck because of their defense, not because of their offense. That is a fact . Nope, not neccessarily true. Also, suck is a pretty tough word to use on a 8-5 team. The defense is ranked ahead of KC and is only 40 and 45 yards per game behind Indianapolis and St. Louis. The defense does not operate in a shell, nor does the offense. The amount of time the defense is on the field is greatly affected by how long their offense can control the ball. Finally, the D is weak because all the money was spent building the offense around Culpeeper.
What I find amusing is that Vikings fans who complain about not getting the ball deep would rather have Tom "Master of the 3 yard pass" Brady at QB. He couldn't throw the ball deep if his life depended on it.
I have never called for Brady and I would not want him for this offense. However, the guy consistently wins and he has won a superbowl. I forget, how many superbowls as Daunte led his team to?
Kurn, son of Mogh
12-10-2003, 04:33 PM
What I find amusing is that Vikings fans who complain about not getting the ball deep would rather have Tom "Master of the 3 yard pass" Brady at QB. He couldn't throw the ball deep if his life depended on it.
You have obviously missed this season. Apparently, a number of losing defensive coordinators have also bought into this myth.
What I find amusing is that Vikings fans who complain about not getting the ball deep would rather have Tom "Master of the 3 yard pass" Brady at QB. He couldn't throw the ball deep if his life depended on it.
Hey...did you see him against Miami? Denver on MNF? And remember, this guy has substandard receivers to throw to. It is an area of his game that has improved this year.
pudley4
12-10-2003, 05:42 PM
So if you had to choose one quarterback to win one game for you, who would you choose?
McNabb or Culpepper?
McNair or Culpepper?
Brady or Culpepper?
Manning or Culpepper?
I don't think any of the decisions are close. The first three are proven, playoff-winning QBs. Manning has shown the ability to lead his team back from late-game deficits (see: TB and NE).
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not pounding the table on Culpepper but it seems to me that he also may not have realized his full potential.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope you're right. He's got incredible physical gifts; however, there's so much more to being a great QB than being 265 lbs and throwing the ball 70+ yds. Potential is great, but at some point he's got to start producing and not just tag along for the ride.
Kurn, son of Mogh
12-10-2003, 05:42 PM
And remember, this guy has substandard receivers to throw to.
But at least now he has Bethel Johnson who may well be the fastest man in the NFL, to throw to.We just have to teach him to get open.
Dynasty
12-10-2003, 06:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What I find amusing is that Vikings fans who complain about not getting the ball deep would rather have Tom "Master of the 3 yard pass" Brady at QB. He couldn't throw the ball deep if his life depended on it.
You have obviously missed this season. Apparently, a number of losing defensive coordinators have also bought into this myth.
[/ QUOTE ]
More importantly, his life doesn't depend on it- just Super Bowls. And, in three seasons as the #1 QB, Brady has one Super Bowl and the best record in the NFL so far this year.
banditbdl
12-10-2003, 07:16 PM
You're right, you and all the other Viking yahoo fans have been calling for Gus Frerotte to be your starting QB ever since he beat up on a 49ers squad playing terrible football and had a decent game against the equally hapless Falcons. Gus Frerotte?!?
Isn't it funny how whenever some MN scrub QB comes in and plays one game well everyone jumps all over him as the next savior of the team? Its been going on for 10 years now at least.
banditbdl
12-10-2003, 08:18 PM
It goes back to when Cunningham came in and had that incredible year replacing Brad Johnson (who I guess kinda took Moon's job as well). Then just like that Denny yanked the rug out from under Cunningham in favor of Jeff George and for a little while George produced. Then before you could catch your breath George was out and Culpepper was taking the team to the NFC championship in his first year as a starter.(oh, how quickly we forget that fact.)
Denny Green really grew the QB feeding frenzy and all the QBs produced at least for awhile. The fans look to the new guy as a savior because a lot of times they sort of have been, but it can't last forever. Stick with Culpepper, he's starting to "get it." Just typing that sentence is amazing for me cuz when the Vikes drafted him, I was one of his biggest detractors. I mean they were drafting someone to play QB, the most cerebral position, who had barely qualified academically for college, yikes. However, despite his faults, and they were many, never, never, question Denny Green's eye for offensive talent.
Clarkmeister
12-10-2003, 11:55 PM
Brady has fewer TD's and more INT's, 15 and 12 to Daunte's 20 and 8.
Similar fumble numbers, 12 fumbles, 4 lost to Daunte's 13 and 6.
Daunte has more rushing yards and TD's, 350 and 4 to Brady's microscopic 32 and 1.
And a Brady has significantly lower Yards Per Attempt, the key indicator of throwing down field. 6.9 vs 7.8.
QB Rating is 97 Daunte to 81 for Brady.
This is a silly discussion.
While I don't think Brady is a great QB, I don't understand why you insist on overlooking critical information:
wins
# of superbowl wins
strength of schedule
strength of offense
dome versus outdoors (last week's storm hurt Brady)
year over year consistency
Etc
Kurn, son of Mogh
12-11-2003, 09:45 AM
This is a silly discussion.
You are correct. Brady leads in the only stat that counts: wins.
The Vikings are not a Super Bowl team even with Culpepper and Moss. The only test of a QB is does he intelligently execute the game plan given to him by the coaches. It's not all about talent. If it were, Drew Bledsoe would've been a champion many times over.
Daunte has more rushing yards and TD's, 350 and 4 to Brady's microscopic 32 and 1.
This ia absolutely the most irrelevant statistic for a QB. Why are so many fans enamored of "running" quarterbacks?
I actually think Manning is the best pure QB. Maybe Brady looks good to me, or wins so much, because his coach is head and shoulders better than any NFL coach today.
elwoodblues
12-11-2003, 12:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This ia absolutely the most irrelevant statistic for a QB. Why are so many fans enamored of "running" quarterbacks?
[/ QUOTE ]
Running quarterbacks change defenses significantly. The fact that at any second Daunte can and will take of for 10 yards makes the defense behave in ways that allows for other big plays.
Clarkmeister
12-11-2003, 01:48 PM
"You are correct. Brady leads in the only stat that counts: wins"
That's funny, Trent Dilfer is something like 14-1 in his last 15 starts, including a Super Bowl win. Why couldn't he even find a starting job?
Kurn, son of Mogh
12-11-2003, 01:59 PM
Running quarterbacks change defenses significantly.
Good defenses adapt. Steve Young not withstanding, running QB's usually don't win championships.
Did you take note of Daunte's accomplishments this week? Only the great ones could put together a game the way Daunte did today. Man, if the defense could only hold.
I was especially impressed by the way he switched it up at the end of the game by throwing a terrible game losing pick instead of giving up a game losing fumble. Again, not many QBs have both those options in their bag.
Also, to amass 10 points against a team with a losing record and nothing to play for is quite an accomplishment indeed.
Oh yeah, and Brady won again.
Clarkmeister
12-14-2003, 05:52 PM
Yeah, clearly is fault that:
1. The punter screwed up and gave the Bears what turned out to be a critical 3 points.
and
2. Randy Moss let the defender rip the ball from his hands on what was a good pass from Daunte.
What fantasy world do you live in that the final INT was even remotely his fault? He threw a strike to Moss in 1 on 1 coverage and Moss simply let the defender rip it out of his hands. Pathetic.
The pass was simply terrible - which is what you would expect out of Daunte under pressure. I thought the same thing you did until I saw the replay. The pass was well inside and the defended had a far better shot at the ball than Moss. It was Moss that almost made a great play by reaching back across his body and against his momentum. He got his hands on the ball but it was aimed right at the gut of the defender, allowing him to easily take it away. Nice play by the defender - yes. Terrible throw by Daunte - yes. Take a look again. The only thing you can't have in that situation is a pick - which of course is the reason that I told my friend, "watch, here comes a Daunte pick". Its like clockwork with this guy.
Yes - the punter (or snapper) screwed up. However, that says nothing about the fact that Daunte led his team to a whopping 13 points against a team with a losing record and nothing to play for. You put a little pressure on Daunte and he just stinks.
banditbdl
12-14-2003, 06:33 PM
The pick is on Daunte and Moss both, probably Daunte more than Moss. It was a bad pass by Daunte, but Randy's lack of effort and baby act is simply pathetic. He has certainly shown he's capable of making a better play in that situation when he feels like it. My favorite was when he just stuck his hand out rather than make an effort to grab a catchable ball on what would have been a 20+ yard gain. Moss is as talented as they get but as long as he's the team leader the Vikes will be in trouble.
pudley4
12-15-2003, 10:37 AM
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I was especially impressed by the way he switched it up at the end of the game by throwing a terrible game losing pick instead of giving up a game losing fumble. Again, not many QBs have both those options in their bag.
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/images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif
That made me laugh
daryn
12-15-2003, 10:51 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
I was especially impressed by the way he switched it up at the end of the game by throwing a terrible game losing pick instead of giving up a game losing fumble. Again, not many QBs have both those options in their bag.
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i know it has been said already but this comment is excellent
banditbdl
12-15-2003, 01:16 PM
Utah, you should read Barreiro's column about Tice's game management of the Bears game in Monday's Star Tribune. I thought it was one of the better recent columns from that old crank.
DeezNuts
12-15-2003, 07:28 PM
As a devout Vikings fan, I must say I hate having Daunte as my QB. I wasn't able to watch the game, but was able to see the highlight and have no idea how you throw a ball that close to the defender on a 2nd and 8 trailing by 3 with a minute left. Moss gave a half assed effort, to be sure, but you can't throw 50/50 ball in that situation.
I wouldn't mind having Culpepper on my fantasy team, but I am waiting for the Sunday that he puts together a respectful come-from behind win(I thought he would do it Sunday as I was tracking the game on the internet, how can you blow that?) The guy is talented but has no idea how to manage the game and has few of the "intangibles" that QBs such as McNair and Brady have. It absolutely kills me to have him and his small turnover hands captaining the purple-and-gold. But then again, the only Vikings QB I have liked in the past 10 years is Brad Johnson(Cunningham should have never been allowed to bump him out of the starting lineup).
Of course, it didn't help that I had a big bet on the Vikings(-1) on Sunday.
DN
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