PDA

View Full Version : The "Death" of a Poker Player


FeliciaLee
12-07-2003, 09:30 PM
Monday, December 1, 2003

There has been a poker "death" in my family. Glenn is the victim, and the killer, both.

Since Glenn and I retired from AOL last year, we started taking poker seriously. Not to make money to live on, but for something to do. We both attacked it from different angles.

I wanted to talk to other poker players. I wanted to read every, single book. I wanted to eat, sleep and drink poker. I wasn't obsessed to the point that I was a degenerate gambler and blowing money, in fact, I got more pleasure out of reading poker books and watching WSOP videos than I did actually playing!

Glenn, on the other hand, always wanted to be in the action. Nevermind that he couldn't play. He would ask me to "recap" a poker book I'd read, so that he would play better. Recap??? What the heck can he learn from that? Good poker books are to be chewed through, many times over; studied, studied, then studied some more.

When we first got serious about poker, we would play low limit Stud. I would usually "cover" Glenn's losses. I experienced a really good run for several months and was more than able to sustain his awful play.

Glenn made the switch to hold'em, and his losses were a bit more limited. He still wasn't any good, but at least he was tight (the one thing he'd learned from me and my Mom). Over time, Glenn got better at poker. Experience, the teacher, plus his genius mathmatical skills. He wasn't losing "as much."

Glenn has never been a winner at poker.

Several times I urged Glenn to just quit. He wasn't winning. He wasn't happy. He wouldn't study, nor could he accept that poker has a large percentage of luck built into the game. He couldn't tolerate the luck factor. He was used to chess, table tennis, billiards. He refused to accept that there are bad beats, and that bad players can take all of your money in any given session.

A few years ago, Glenn had to go on blood pressure medication. He was only 31 years old, but his BP was dangerously high. He lost some weight, ate right, got into cardiovascular exercise, quit AOL, and managed to get it under control. It took about five years, but he was able to get it back within high/normal ranges, and go off of his prescription.

Now Glenn's BP has skyrocketed again. He gets so angry at bad beats. He cannot understand poker. It isn't the game for him. I have tried to get him to read all of the books, specialize in one form of poker with less variance. I have tried virtually everything. He started wearing headphones so that he didn't have to listen to all of the yahoo's talk about drawing out on him. He listened to soothing music and/or music he loved.

I have tried everything. Everything has failed. Finally I have convinced him that he has to quit poker.

TobDog
12-08-2003, 12:24 AM
Felicia,

I am sorry to hear that someone close to you is having a hard time with poker, I watched this a few years ago when I was first beginning to play. I played at San Manuel in the San Bernadino area, and played 2-4 about 3-4 days a week, there was a lady there I used to play with often, she began playing stud there when the casino first opened, she said she played everyday.
One day she discovered Holdem, and then stud was history, her husband also played, I played with him too, mostly 2-4 and 3-6, but they occasionally played higher, he was like you describe Glenn, except probably more aggressive and a little more loose. She said she was trying to build a small bankroll to play higher, saved about $1000 on a good week she had, then her husband lost all that plus a little more one night at the end of that week, about a week after I was told this story, I never saw either of them in the casino again. I sometimes wonder what happened to them, did they both have to quit? did this pull them apart? Somethings well never know, at least you were able to convince him of his abilities at poker.

JTG51
12-08-2003, 01:09 AM
I'm don't doubt that Glenn is a very bright guy, but it's a little hard to believe he truly understands the math behind the game if he gets that frustrated about the luck factor in the game.

Maybe Hold'em just isn't the right form of poker for him? Maybe he'd enjoy and do better at a more mechanical game like Omaha?

Mason Malmuth
12-08-2003, 04:36 AM
Hi Felicia:

This is actually an interesting post, and you are describing one of the reasons that poker games are good and will always be good. There's a small subset of people out there who just shouldn't be playing poker. No matter what they do, there is something about the game that blocks their ability to win at it. On top of that, the frustration factor drives them crazy. These people are just better off never playing again.

best wishes,
mason

sam h
12-08-2003, 04:59 AM
Felicia,

It sounds like you've done the best thing possible given a tough situation. It is strange question why some people just aren't hardwired to to play successful poker. But the best thing that somebody can do who cares about somebody like that is to convince them to quit. Especially if the problem goes beyond pure financial loss and is leading to health and life issues as well.

I think the tough thing in the future will be finding a way to maintain your own poker playing and general obsession with the game while not tempting Glenn too much to return to what seems like a bad situation.

FeliciaLee
12-08-2003, 09:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm don't doubt that Glenn is a very bright guy, but it's a little hard to believe he truly understands the math behind the game if he gets that frustrated about the luck factor in the game.

Maybe Hold'em just isn't the right form of poker for him? Maybe he'd enjoy and do better at a more mechanical game like Omaha?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct. He "knows" the odds, the math, but he doesn't "understand" it.

We tried Omaha. He actually made his way through Ray's book (once), but I think Omaha just made him more frustrated.

Thanks anyway!

Kurn, son of Mogh
12-08-2003, 10:43 AM
Omaha just made him more frustrated.

That's understandable. Waiting and waiting for that AA23d hand and having the flop come K-Q-Jr will make anybody's BP skyrocket.

Al_Capone_Junior
12-08-2003, 11:50 AM
What's more frustrating to me is that any moron with A289r or some such A2 combination flops the nuts, or a draw to the nuts, for half the pot a large % of the time. It's largely just a contest to see who can get dealt A2. Sure, it gets counterfeited once in a while, big hairy deal. Like you were counting on your 24K8r on being worth a crapola when you folded it.

In addition, as a gross generality I have seen MANY more arguements at omaha-8 games than any other. That's why I call it Argue-o-haw.

al

ACPlayer
12-08-2003, 04:33 PM
The two biggest obstacles that I had to (and still continue to ) manage were understanding my personal state of mind and then taking advantage of those of the others. Wading thry Schoonmaker's book which is a difficult book to read helped me in both of these areas.

Any one who cannot master their emotions cannot be a winning poker player (among other qualities).

As an engineer the math (which is quite simple) was easy.

AceHigh
12-08-2003, 09:58 PM
LMAO. Couldn't have said it better myself, but you've got to put a flush draw of the wrong suits on the flop.

Warren Whitmore
12-09-2003, 09:58 AM
"You show me a good loser and I will show you a loser"
Stu.

Lazymeatball
12-09-2003, 12:31 PM
Do you really call it "Argue-o-haw" ?
Have you actually said that outloud?

Lee Jones
12-09-2003, 01:04 PM
This was, indeed, a very interesting post. Poker is not for everybody, and it's definitely not worth being on BP meds in your early 30's.

There are plenty of hobbies you two can find to do together, and still leave time for you to play poker while he does something else. I have seen too many couples where one tried to force the other into adopting the his/her hobby. Be it scuba diving, bluegrass music, or poker, it never works.

Regards, Lee
"Especially if there's a banjo involved."

FeliciaLee
12-09-2003, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This was, indeed, a very interesting post. Poker is not for everybody, and it's definitely not worth being on BP meds in your early 30's.
Regards, Lee
"Especially if there's a banjo involved."

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Lee! I agree completely.

FeliciaLee
12-09-2003, 02:07 PM
Thanks to one and all for the terrific responses to this post. I never expected to get so many educated, caring replies. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As an update, last Friday I woke up in the middle of the night to find Glenn playing poker online. I was disappointed, to say the least.

He said that watching me play makes him want to play.

We talked about his dilemma over the weekend and all of this week. For whatever reason, he seems to take bad beats during tourneys a heck of a lot better than cash games. I have no clue why. Maybe the "chips" have less value to him. I suggested that if he still wants to play, maybe he could stick to tourneys, not to endanger his health.

He promised to really study. Study first Psychology of Poker. Then go back to some of the poker books that he has "skimmed."

He is about halfway through Dr. Al's book, and chewing on it heavily. He discusses things that he has read with me. He is not just flying through it, but studying the material, as he should have done all along.

I am not claiming that Glenn is a changed man, that he will suddenly become a winning player and drop his tendency to anger at bad beats. He is, however, taking a step in the right direction, if he insists on continuing to play.

[ QUOTE ]
Glenn says "thank you" to all of the great replies to this thread. Contrary to what I think (Felicia), Glenn says he really enjoys the game. During his "time off" he has had lots of intropective reflection on poker, and plans on working hard to study the game, accept it for what it is, and not get emotionally involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

chesspain
12-09-2003, 04:29 PM
Felicia,

Your post struck somewhat of a nerve in me, since I see in myself a blend of the characteristics and behaviors exhibited by both you and Glenn.

When I take up a hobby, be it chess, cooking, poker, etc, I try to read and/or watch as much as I can about the activity, likely due both to my desire to become proficient, and my obsessive desire to be fully immersed in something I find so enjoyable and challenging.

Unfortunately, I also become somewhat fixated with objective markers of my proficiency, such as my tournament chess rating, and now, my poker bankroll. Even though my poker bankroll has grown fourteen-fold since I began playing this summer, and I don't really have any plans for this money, other than to provide a bankroll for my trip to Vegas next month, I find it difficult to not frequently think about and guestimate my winning rate (I don't have Pokertracker), which I believe is approx. 1BB per hour, which I'm sure is less than when I was playing .5/1. In comparison to chess ratings, which are much more stable, I still have difficulty, emotionally, accepting the variance, as I always want to see my new bankroll highpoint as being a new "floor" under which my bankroll should not fall, which of course is ridiculous.

I also have high blood pressure, although I was diagnosed when I was in my early thirties, and have keep it under control with medication. I actually think that competitive speed chess was worse for my blood pressure than is poker.

I do have some questions about Glenn, which you are welcome to answer, if you wish, in a PM rather than posting here.

1. You mention that he is more used to games of skill such as chess, ping-pong, and billiards, although only the former requires much bookwork, whereas the latter two require more innate skill and practice for success. Is Glenn someone who is rather "lazy" with respect to learning, preferring to gain proficiency through experience? If so, poker is going to be much more frustrating for him than other skills where you gain proficiency more so through practice and experience.

2. I'm struck by your description of Glenn as someone who "refuses" to accept bad beats, wears headphones to "block out" unpleasant comments, craves action, has very low frustration tolerance, and continues to make the same mistakes again and again without seemingly learning from them (which must be happening if he has never been a winning player). This is a common constellation of characteristics found in addictive personalities, predominantly alcoholics. I would be curious if Glenn has a history of substance abuse and/or is from an addictive family. If so, any type of gambling would not be healthy for him.

3. Finally, if addiction tendencies are truly not an issue, then I'ld wonder about his self-image. Certainly, even though I know that chess ratings and poker BBs/hr are just numbers, they are also markers for men to see how they measure up against each other---especially since we can't go whipping out our Johnsons in public. If his anger is less about losing money and more about plain old losing, than he may feel like his basic competency is being questionned.

I hope that this post will be helpful for you and/or Glenn. If not, feel free to ignore my advice--I'm sure that's what many of my patients do /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bob T.
12-09-2003, 04:32 PM
Another advantage of playing Tournaments, especially if he is playing SnG's is that it is over in an hour, and you usually only suffer one bad beat. It is not like a ring game where you it never ends, and you can stay and really get worked up about the 'injustice of poker.'

midas
12-09-2003, 07:16 PM
Felicia:

I have been following you posts here and elsewhere and really enjoy your writing style. You seem to really enjoy the game and have a good attitude toward the people and places you go (Your posts even make me want to visit the Belle the next time I'm in NV!).

Here goes my Dr. Phil impression:

Although I don't completely understand your current situation - diabetes, "retiring from AOL" and DC to AZ, etc. -- my question is - does Glenn think he has to play poker to be an important part of your life? Do you guys have any other common hobbies or interests?

I'm giving up poker and calling Oprah for a new gig /images/graemlins/smile.gif

FeliciaLee
12-09-2003, 09:35 PM
JHC. Psychologists are way too scary. Are you looking into our souls with a crystal ball or what?

Expect a PM, as soon as I can compose myself.

Needless to say, you are very close to the money on this one!

FeliciaLee
12-09-2003, 09:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Felicia:

I have been following you posts here and elsewhere and really enjoy your writing style. You seem to really enjoy the game and have a good attitude toward the people and places you go (Your posts even make me want to visit the Belle the next time I'm in NV!).

Here goes my Dr. Phil impression:

Although I don't completely understand your current situation - diabetes, "retiring from AOL" and DC to AZ, etc. -- my question is - does Glenn think he has to play poker to be an important part of your life? Do you guys have any other common hobbies or interests?

I'm giving up poker and calling Oprah for a new gig /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Tyvm. I appreciate the feedback. Yes, we have quite a few common interests. Our relationship is very, very good, always has been.

Please do come visit us at the Belle someday. It is an easy place to make money, and extremely comfy/cozy, if you like friendly, laid-back senior citizens.

Gildersneeze
12-10-2003, 05:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
JHC. Psychologists are way too scary. Are you looking into our souls with a crystal ball or what?

Expect a PM, as soon as I can compose myself.

Needless to say, you are very close to the money on this one!

[/ QUOTE ]Felicia, you may also want to look into Attention Deficit Disorder, something that I'm afflicted with, particularly in the "addictive personality" suggestion that chesspain tossed out.

That, combined with his apparent impatience with reading and studying things that need to be read and studied, his desire for "instant" success, a short tolerance for disappointment at his own mistakes, but never seeming to learn from them, well, that, among other things, was me until I started taking medicine for ADD.

I'm wondering. Does Glenn tend to hyperfocus at times? Like he just starts doing something and then it's like he's "in the zone," and whatever task is at hand gets 150% of his attention until it's done or he's ready to drop? This is a symptom of ADD that can mask its diagnosis. You'll usually hear people that hyperfocus say things like "well, if it's something I'm interested in, I can stay right with it, so I can't have ADD!"

ADD doesn't mean you can't pay attention at all. It really means that you're easily distracted and have trouble regaining your thoughts. One distraction leads to the next, and next thing you know, class is over and you haven't learned jack.

Ask him if this analogy makes sense.

Imagine, if you will, your thoughts and ideas as little islands in a HUUUUUUGE ocean of unrelated jokes, facts, quips, quotes, anecdotes, family stories, memories, entire scripts of television shows (word for word, and that's the truth for me), funny tidbits, and all sorts of other things that have nothing to do with the island you're on right now. The islands are leading somewhere. You have to get from island to island, and to do that, you've got to swim through the ocean.

As long as you can remember where you're going (the next island with the next important thought), and where you came from (the previous island with the last related important thought), you're fine. But that's not the way this movie works. The outcome is generally one of two things. One: You make it to the new island. You look back to see the island you just came from, but the island is gone and a new island's there in its place! Well, hell, gotta go see what made that happen, and why won't that Island just stay the way it was, dammit, that island was an important landmark in navigating this chain of thinking! That was where we started! Well, let's go see what's happened. Halfway there, the island behind you is gone. The island in front has changed three times, and now that you're there, you can't even remember why the hell you've gone this way anyway. Try as you might to make the island fix itself (it's YOUR brain, right?) it won't. And now you have to say "where were we? Ahhh, screw it. I'll just pretend to understand and study it later."

Two: As soon as you start wading into the ocean, a Shark grabs your leg. Sometimes, you're capable of kicking the shark away. Other times, that bastard will hang on for dear life. The shark, of course, represents a tangental thought or idea. The tangental idea can distract you from swimming to the next island, and then drag you clean across the ocean to the "sea of remembered funny TV gags" and then you're nowhere near the island, or in reality, the task at hand.

See if that makes Glenn say "oh, snap." I only came up with that analogy after I started taking the "brain be workin'" medicine, so who knows. But it could indeed help. PM me as well if this may be an issue and you want some further advice, as I've had this problem all my life, and railed against it for years.

The medicine (for me, Adderall) basically built bridges between the islands, allowing me to get distracted, but only if I wanted to jump in to the ocean. It did NOT sap my wit, or creativity, and make me "a robot," or anything. I'm still the same fun dork I always was.


Many people with ADD will deny it and are headstrong to the point of foolishness (me) about it, as in, everyone can see it but they refuse to believe that when EVERYONE ELSE SAYS "hey, there's a problem," that there is indeed, a problem.