How to play AK AQ in NL cash games?

[Jdanz]

Come on guys, help me out. Weak cash games like party poker 25/50 i'm almost about to only play pocket pairs and take stacks with flopped sets, cause i continually get burned bad with AK and AQ when i hit and when i don't. Help me.

[SevenStuda]

What type of hands are you getting burned with when you hit? Sets? If so, your just getting screwed in the short run, if your losing to two pair, that what you want to see, people drawing against your top pair, big kick.

[Jdanz]

usually two pair, which i can deal with, but the point is when i have top pair top kicker vs a lesser hand i'm rarely getting paid off, whereas when the two pair actually hits they're making money off me. Also i don't usually raise that much preflop because i'm 2-1 against actually picking anything up, but that lets in a lot of weak hands that wind up two pairing or something. There are pleanty of times i win with this hand, but when i lose i usually lose bigger then i win. Any more thoughts?

[leon]

I'd say more money is lost with top pair top kicker in NL or PL than any other hand. It's absolutely bread and butter in limit play but you're asking for trouble against reasonable opponents in a big bet situation.

When you play NL or PL your goal is the opponent's whole stack. You can't do this with top pair against a reasonable opponent. Sure, every once in a while a huge fish comes along that gets married to top pair, worse kicker, but as you've already discovered if top pair breaks someone it rates to be you.

I generally play AK and AQ looking to play HU against one opponent. If the field isn't too big I'll make a good sized bet with TP/TK, but if encounter significant resistance I generally back off.

AQ in particular is a tough hand to play in earlier positions b/c you don't know where you stand with a raise preflop if you get called. My advice would be to save AQ for later positions.

The fun part of NL and PL is other hands which don't work out in the long run in limit become playable here b/c of the huge implied odds. But stuff like big unsuited definitely goes down in value. If you approach the game from this mindset you should find yourself a lot less frustrated.

Leon

[crockpot]

if you don't play these hands well, you should consider mucking them if someone else makes a legitimate raise preflop.

your problem is probably that you're going broke in small pots with these hands when you flop top pair. if the money is very deep and someone wants to go all-in with you, he will virtually always have TPTK beat. your goal with AK in no-limit is to milk lower Ax or Kx hands. if you make a reasonable sized bet on the flop or especially the turn and someone hits you with a big raise, you're probably in trouble and should strongly consider folding, depending on the opponent.

incidentally, if you want to resort to the only pocket pairs strategy, move to a site that allows you to buy in for 100 big blinds instead of 50. party's structure heavily decreases the reward for hitting a big hand, and increases the betting power of hands like AK and AQ that hit top pair.

[Jdanz]

So on a slightly different topic, what should i be playing? The more i play the more i feel like i should play unbelievably tight in NL. i.e. only play ak aq pocket pairs and good flush/straight draw cards in position with a couple of limpers. Is that too tight considering i'm going to drop anything other then a set or real good draw to much resistance?

[crockpot]

except for hands where you raise preflop with the intention of buying it on the flop with a bet (which you should throw into your game in good position with few limpers), this sounds about right. in a game where you can buy in for more than 50 big blinds, you can play a lot more hands for sheer implied odds, and you must also raise with your premium hands preflop to deny these odds to your opponents.

[Fistdantilus]

My simplistic guide for AK/AQ goes like this:

Don't call w/ AQ PF unless you really know the person.

Raise AK/AQ to 4x-6x the blinds when you're first/second in.

On the flop, bet the pot 80 some % of the time, if the flop doesn't look too bad. Most people on party fold here. My pokertracker stats tell me that I go to showdown 17% of the time with AKo, and 6% of the time with AQo. That should give you some idea just how important that kicker is; my AQ win % is 53%, my AK is 66%. Obviously I don't hit my cards 2/3 of the time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

if the flop comes rags, you bet the pot, and get called, then you are DONE with the hand. Check-fold. Many times, if an A or K comes with the flop and your pot bet gets called, you are DONE with the hand. Try to see the showdown as cheaply as possible. Whether to call a potential bluff or not is something that's player dependent.

Fistdantilus

[scrub]

AK and AQ are hands that are enormously profitable, but you need to be able to read hands well to play them profitably. Often, when your pot bet gets called on a board with an obvious draw, you need to be able to fire the second barrel on the turn. You should also be paying attention to what sort of hands your opponent will call down with. If your opponent is consistently calling raises/flop bets with trap hands {QK, AJ, QJ, etc.} you should go ahead and keep betting. Especially if you raised a significant amount where the stacks are shallow. In the long run you're going to show a profit, and these players are not the rare beast that you might imagine.

If your opponent seldom raises to protect his flopped two pair or set, and doesn't seem likely to have gotten into trouble on the flop with a trap hand, be more prepared to slow it down.

Also, don't feel obligated to pot the turn. An open draw is 5:1 or so to hit--you don't need to bet so big that you only get called by a hand that beats you. Especially if a player is likely enough to overvalue their flush draw that they'll call 1/2 pot or so, but not aggressive enough to steal often on the river with a missed draw.

You also ought to be exercising some judgement with what to do on the flop when you miss. If you're up against an extremely loose or extremely aggressive player who will raise or call more often than not, you probably ought to check it down some of the time, making it harder for a player to show a profit by raising you on the flop whenever rags come off. You probably ought to be occasionally mixing up the hands you raise with for similar reasons.

Good luck!

scrub

[wontons]

Very interesting post about hands that arent playable in limit tend to be playable in nl/pl because of the implied odds..i like the idea..however in nl/pl games there is usually significant raises preflop and limping in with JTs, 87s, etc can get costly even if you hit top pair with all low cards on the flop...u gonna risk it all vs a guy with 2 overcards?

[leon]

No, you don't call a raise preflop with that trash, nor are you looking to hit one pair on the flop. You're looking to get in cheap and flop a blockbuster. Such is the nature of all hands that want implied odds, no different than limit.

A couple of examples-
1. You limp in in middle position with 10j suited. More limp. The button bets 2x the pot. Just fold. If you've brought a decent stack you can make these folds all night. All it takes is one big hand in big bet poker.

2. Same as above except no raise preflop. You hit one pair. There's a pot bet and a call to you. Fold. You didn't hit the flop you were looking for.

"even if you hit top pair with all low cards on the flop...u gonna risk it all vs a guy with 2 overcards? "

No, but if I hit a set and HE'S going to risk it all with top pair, he figures to go broke, not me.

Hope this cleared it up.

Leon