Q5s in BB

[vkotlyar]

usuall lose 10-20. UTG raises, 6 cold callers, and i call w Q /images/graemlins/club.gif5 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB. (Any1 call from sb, button?)flop: 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif.
I check, utg bets, every1 calls, i raise, utg 3 bets, every1 calls, and i cap. Comments?
turn: 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I check, utg bets, every1 calls, i call (any1 raise?). the river bricked /images/graemlins/frown.gif
vitaly

[SevenStuda]

Did you try to buy the pot on the river? Might have been worth a try.

[AJo Go All In]

umm.

did you consider that you may have been drawing dead?

your play in this hand was just silly, in my opinion.

[Diplomat]

So you are a maniac. Interesting.

-Diplomat

[chesspain]

Maybe just calling the flop in what could be a nice, multiway pot when you're only drawing to the third nut-flush with a cheesy kicker to your top card might have been more prudent. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[andyfox]

I would have folded pre-flop. If I had called, I would then have played call, call, fold post-flop. Which isn't my favorite strategy. Which is why I would have folded pre-flop.

[turnipmonster]

it might help to post what you're thinking on each street, so that those of us not high on crack could try and understand why you played this the way you did /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[Dante]

you're getting 7-1 for a 6.4-1 to flop the flush draw you want. You get the flop you want (other than one with A and K of clubs) and then decide to throw away money on the flop by raising. Everyone called the initial bet, do you think they're going to lay it down to two more bets? Your call would have closed the action.

On the turn, if you consider raising here, anyone with an actual hand isn't going to fold for one more bet and your guyshot probably isn't even an out. Hell, your flush outs probably aren't even live.

[anatta]

I'd make this preflop call all the time. Andy's reasons for not making it are making me rethink this. If you get the action you want, you then fear you are drawing dead! Button or SB I would fold it.

One problem with the flop check-raise is the callers called an UTG raise before the flop. This makes big cards, i.e. a bigger flush draw, more likely. Still I don't think check-raising for value is as horrible as everyone says, and I tend to fear higher draws since I see it happen quite a bit. I would just call. Capping it is a bit "crackish" because with everyone calling, now I think the chances of drawing dead are high enough (I guess 30%?) that you want to keep the cost of business down.

Another problem with capping the flop is when you miss the turn, if you check, everyone knows you are drawing, and you are more likely to face a raise, and if you bet, well, UTG has a big hand, and HE may raise the turn.

[vkotlyar]

I think that the call in the BB is a must. You are getting 14-1. I cant think of 2 sutied cards i will fold here. I will even play 64o. heck, 14-1 with major implied odds in case you hit. As for capping on the flop, i think its a must. You are gonna comlete 30% of the time by the river, so you only need 2-1 to raise. I am getting 6-1. Ill take that anytime. As for drawing dead, i highly doubt it. Anyone with an A or K high draw (esp in late possition) would raise the flop to either buy a free card or clean up some outs. I was sure that if i hit my flush it would be good.
Some math: i invested 60 dollars post flop. The pot was over 500. I will hit 1/3 times. I will spend 60+20preflop 3 times = 240 and will win 500 1 time, for a profit of 260 dollars every three times i flop a draw.
In addition, after capping the flop, if a club hits, some people will not put me on the flush. The might think i have a set, and might still draw to str8s.
vitaly

[Ed Miller]

...your guyshot probably isn't even an out. Hell, your flush outs probably aren't even live.

The thinking in this thread is absurd. What about the way the hand was played makes you think that spiking a six or a club will leave you in second place?

[phish]

I can't believe you're getting all this criticism on your play. In my opinion, you played your hand fine.
People criticize you for playing the 3rd nut flush, but it's rather unlikely that someone is holding Ax or Kx of clubs. Raising on the flop is correct since you're getting 6 to 1 return and are only a 2 to 1 dog.

[Dante]

What do most people do with the nut flush draw in a large pot - raise it or call any number of bets with it. What has EACH one of the 7 other players in the hand done - raise or call multiple bets cold. Maybe a few opponents are truly bad, but with 7 opponents, some of them are hanging around calling bets with something.

As for the straight, in the 10-20 game I usually play in, many of the mediocre players play hands like 9Ts, in lots of positions for 1-2 bets PF.

At the same time, a flush card that pairs the board may be a loser for him as well.

Not that all those hands are out there, but with 8 people in a pot with that action, I don't think it's "monsters under the bed" to think that you're drawing dead or that many of the outs are tainted. At the flop, I certainly wouldn't have folded, but on the turn with 7 other players calling 3 bets on the flop and the turn, caution is in order since no one is going anywhere.

[Depraved]

If you use your own logic for when to raise, then you must raise the turn as well. You picked up more outs on the turn, and decided to call which makes no sense. You're getting 7-1 betting odds for a less than 3-1 draw on the turn - you'll make more money by raising assuming you're drawing live, people will call one or two more bets, and no one's drawing to a fullhouse.

But, in the worst case scenario, as long as your flush draw is live, you're making money by raising this pot 7-handed.

[vkotlyar]

i tend not to worry about flush over flush unless there is some heavy raising from other players in the pot. Flush over flush is rare. I think it has only happened to me 10 times this year. The reason as to why i did not raise the turn in because i put UTG on a set instead of an overpair, so some of my flush outs were indeed tainted. if UTG doesnt 3-bet my on the flop, i bet, and raise the turn like there is not tomorrow as long as its still 5 ways. I think that if i hit my gutshot, i would split the pot. From the action on the flop and the texture of the game, i would assume that someone called the flop w just the bare A of clubs. So i am not too concerned about Ax clubs. I feel that you will make a lot more money in the long run if you play your multiway draws this way. At the lower limits, players tend to just call with their draws. they dont want to invest money until they have a hand. That is a flawed way to think about your draw. Draws make you money, as long as they are multiway, especially if they seem clean (no pair on board). So jam it in there, after all, its only clay /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Besides, next time you checkraise with a set on a flush board, other players will play back with just top pair beacuse they figure you for just a draw. You can cap the flop, and even c/r the turn.
vitaly

[ZeeJustin]

I like the check raise preflop, and think this is a standard value bet. I think the cap is borderline. Lots of callers of 2 bets cold (after your check raised was reraised) indicates strength, especially with drawing hands that could have you dominated. Also, it is very likely the bettor / reraiser has a set, and your flush may not be enough depending on turn + river.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you try to buy the pot on the river? Might have been worth a try.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you not catch the part about him having 19 opponents?

[brad]

obviously a function of the looseness of the players. and of course big pot everybody has odds to draw to anything.

main thing might be if someone did have a higher flush draw to the buttons immediate left(s) they might just call the whole way, not letting you know you are drawing (until the turn gutter) dead.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
From the action on the flop and the texture of the game, i would assume that someone called the flop w just the bare A of clubs. So i am not too concerned about Ax clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow. this thinking makes absolutely no sense. if you read it again, you should see why.

[ QUOTE ]
Flush over flush is rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? is it? i don't really think it's that rare.
my guess is however rare flush over flush is, flush draw over flush draw is much more common. when there are multiple flush draws in the pot, there are fewer club outs.


as for your comments about how typical opponents play flush draws, i would say cold-calling multiple bets is more common than betting and raising the maximum.

my guess is by the action there is at least a 25% chance that your club outs were no good.

[vkotlyar]

Quote:
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From the action on the flop and the texture of the game, i would assume that someone called the flop w just the bare A of clubs. So i am not too concerned about Ax clubs.


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wow. this thinking makes absolutely no sense. if you read it again, you should see why.

it is not absurb. I know the field. they play their draws very aggressively. Surely any1 else w a flush draw would put in a raise on the flop. The only other person who can have a higher flush draw than me is UTG.
there is yet another reason to pump it with a draw and make a huge pot. Those players that miss their draws or get sucked out on will instantly go on tilt, and chase even more than they have before.
vitaly

[anatta]

I gave the reasons why I think a club might not be good and estimated the percentage time he is drawing dead (about 30% was my guess - after everyone called the three-bet). I said his check raise wasn't that bad on the flop, but I would probably just call. I thought the cap was a mistake, but only a bit "crackish"! I didn't understand the criticism either.

[elysium]

hi vk
interesting. the problem here vk is......what is that cat saying? the old saying.....oh yea, curiosity. curiosity killed the cat. curiosity killed the cat. cat. i like kitty things.....but anyway, getting back to poker, it's kind of funny how here at 2+2 we are constantly striving to learn more and more about our opponents holdings."what are they holding?", we thus inquisicate:"by what means have ye that we may learn more and more?". and we resolve to find out at any and all costs because, we are told, knowledge is power, etc., etc. but vk, in the hold em universe, sometimes ignorance yields dividends while curiosity and knowledge mortally horrify. and kill.

you went seeking knowledge in a multi-way spook cave, and what you learned is frightening; better that you shouldn't know such things.

vk, when in a spooky multi-way, put your hands over your eyes and make it go away.....by calling. you want to know a little teeny bit, not all this. unless of course you have a draw to the nuts. in hold em, ignorance sometimes gives better odds. that's right. sometimes not knowing is the best odds play that you can possibly make.

[Dante]

If you're sure that EVERYONE else at the table who had a draw would have played it aggressively and your flush outs are clean, then I think some of us would mute our criticism, but as others have pointed out, in our games in big pots, it's much more common to have people call and call with their flush draws (esp the nut flush draw) than to raise.

[brad]

i mean to immediate left of preflop raiser, utg. duh. they might call rather than shut people out, etc.

[turnipmonster]

note that I'm only addressing the flop play here.
I have made a ton of money in wild games jamming strong draws. I think it's a very strong move under the right circumstances. the problem is that, in wild loose games, people like to play suited aces and even suited kings. the fact that 7 people are calling your raises in big multiway pots make it far more likely that the Axs or Kxs is out there. do you think everyone has top pair?

--turnipmonster

[nykenny]

turn: RAISE! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi andy,

What odds would you need to make this call or would you not make it no matter what?

[Gabe]

In his follow up post he said he was getting 14 to one to call. It was actually 15 to 1. Where do you guys draw the line on a call here? JTs? AKs?

Okay, after the flop, there are a lot of possible bad scenarios. He could be drawing dead. He can make his hand and be out drawn on the river. Maybe there are two other flush draws and a set out there, so he’s drawing real thin. However, if he figures that he still has the equivalent of between 4 or 5 outs, and I don’t think this overly optimistic if the player are bad enough, he’s still making money on every bet that goes in as long as he doesn’t lose anyone. The point is, it may be very thin, it may be slightly bad, but it’s for sure not suicidal.

[phish]

I agree. I can't believe he's getting so much criticism for what is generally correct play. I suspect his critics are the overly weak-tight players who don't have a full grasp of the game. These message boards seem to swarm with them.

[trillig]

Save your $, dump all those Q5's . against a raise in any position...

Not a big deal, just do it! 8)

-t

[trillig]

Q5 is junk, pot odds forget about it, you could make a case to call with 72o then as well?

J9 would be the worst hand I'd defend against a raise probably in BB.

It's more about bets saved and fact that Q5 just puts you in bad shape before you even see the flop.

-t

[DaShark]

Before I talk about the hand, been readin the boards for a while and the is my first post here. Hope I can take my game up a notch by hangin around. Now the hand...

I dont think the call preflop is so bad in this pot. Sure the cards are horrible, but assuming vk knows when to get away from the hand he's getting a little over 10 to 1 to flop a 4 flush. After the flop, it's probably better play to just check/call here for a couple reasons:

1. Even with everyone calling the ahnd really isn't strong enough for the obvious reraise coming from the utg bettor much less a cap.
2. You had outs, but with all the callers all of them might not have been good. Not to a higher flush per se, but perhaps to JJ, 88, 77, or T9. This would kill the J/images/graemlins/club.gif on the flop and the 4/images/graemlins/club.gif or any 6 (besides the 6 of clubs) on the river.

Not to say you weren't right for continuing to play or that you should always fear a monster, but in this situation you could be up against a set that would have great odds to house.

Just a few reasons not to ram and jam the flop.

[Ed Miller]

Q5 is junk, pot odds forget about it, you could make a case to call with 72o then as well?

When will you people learn that thinking this way is not helpful at all to you or anyone else.

Wish I hadn't lent my copy of HPFAP out, or else I'd quote directly from their preflop section on playing in late position. Paraphrased, it goes something like this:

If you are on the button, and many players have limped to you, you can play some hands that are even weaker than those in our hand groups, including hands as weak as... drumroll please... Q5s.

I think his preflop call was a-ok... and furthermore, there are a lot more interesting things to argue about than close preflop decisions.

Bottom line is, if you say something like, "Don't play that POS under any circumstances you loose dumbass," chances are that you are being ignorant.

[trillig]

This was not a limp situation, he and rest of table was raised....

and I don't believe everything I read...

and I am intitled to my opinion. As are you, no need to belittle... 8)

and I haven't read HPFAP, yet.

and yes I still stand by Q5 being junk.

-t

[slavic]

I would have jammed the turn too. I think you played it perfectly and it's a shame the chips didn't come home. Sometimes this game is like playing craps, you got to get a lot of money on the table to play it right. You are getting great odds on every bet, get it in there.

Your not making money on a set but who has a set here?

[slavic]

This was not a limp situation, he and rest of table was raised....
You are completing from the BB and the pot odds say you call.


and I don't believe everything I read...

and I am intitled to my opinion. As are you, no need to belittle... 8)

and I haven't read HPFAP, yet.


Then please read it first. Then choose if you believe it or not.

and yes I still stand by Q5 being junk.
Q5 is junk Q5s is not as junky and getting 15 to 1 to play it is something you should do. Fair odds or Better than fair odds are just hard to pass.

[andyfox]

All those players, I suppose it makes sense to call. I usually fold no matter what the odds. On occasion I'll call for comedic discussion. I just don't remember winning too many of these family pots out of position with Q-5, shmooted or not.

[CrackerZack]

I'm not a fan of this hand PF but if you want to play it, its your prerogative. I don't think its wrong but if I hit the Q, I'd probably check-fold hating every minute of it so I try to stay out of these situations. If you're sure you can play it profitably when you hit the Q at top pair, go right ahead. Money can be made with this hand, but I'm not sure if its +EV for me, so I'd fold.

After that, you played perfectly in my opinion. You made the pot huge ensuring a number of calls if you hit past the flop. You didn't, check-fold and move on. UTG won't lay down his overpair for one bet so save it, next hand.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hey there Vkotlyar,

Obviously a loose action game with so many cold callers after a pre-flop raise.

Q-5 suited in BB for 1 more call when raised after there are 15:1 odds - hell yah I call any 2 suited here included 7-2 suited and just hope to smack the board really.

On the flop I don't like your checkraise mainly because you don't have the nut flush draw and are likely to get outdrawn if you do hit the turn a club on the turn and if another player has K /images/graemlins/club.gif or the A /images/graemlins/club.gif

On the turn, the call is fine IMO.

Draws after all - are still draws. You were getting great odds laid for you to draw and if you hit, I'm sure you would have been paid off by at least 1 or even 2 callers.

You can't worry about flush over flush. They happen, but rarely. It's like worrying about set over set, or having KK and worrying about someone who re-raises you preflop having AA. The chance is just slim.

The only time I would consider raising the flop and capping it with a draw in your situation would be if you had flopped a straight and flush draw. Thus making you a favorite to win this hand especially with so many callers giving tremendous pot odds. In a case like that I would definitely raise the turn for value and get some extra bets into the pot.

But just a queen high flush draw doesn't validate aggressive play imo.

/images/graemlins/blush.gif