How much rake is too much?

Just wondering how much a house rake would have to be to be insurmountable. I consider the Taj rake of 10% (up to $40 in 3-6 and 5-10) to be quite steep as this will greatly affect players in a tight game where pots don't get that big are many are contested heads up.

up to $40? Really?


If so, I'm never bothing to go to Atlantic City. The rake in Vegas is capped at $3 in the big rooms at the Mirage and Bellagio.

He means 10% of up to $40. So there's a 10% rake, max $4.

That makes more sense.


A $4 rake is nothing. I was able to beat that kind of rake in Vegas 1-5 Stud games. I think it's a non-factor in anyting 4-8 and above.

Do you realy believe a 10% max. $4 rake is a "non-factor" in anything 4-8 and above ?


Let's compare this rake method with the one we've been using for going on three years now.


The game is 6-12; the rake is $1 at the flop, another $1 at $50 and a third (and final) dollar at $100.


In an extremely loose game the difference would probably amount to ~ $1 per hand - I'm assuming that at thirty hands per hour roughly $110 would be raked off the former and closer to $80 would disappear off the table in the latter.


If you played well [see tight] you wouldn't be winning as many pots as your opponents but you'd still be likely to win between fifteen and twenty pots over the course of an eight hour session. This would translate into you paying between $2 and $2.50 per hour more in the higher raked game.


This is not an insignificant amount especially if this game were your main source of income. At 2,000 hours per year you'd be paying four to five thousand a year in additional rake.


Now, let's move onto a game that's not quite so loose but is one that you can nonetheless beat for a decent amount of money.


Here the rake really takes it's bite.


The 10% max $4 game is still apt to be removing almost the same $110 per hour; even in a slightly tighter game the vast majority of pots in a 6-12 game will max out. Maybe it might drop to $100 though I doubt it. A tighter game means more hands get dealt; even if the increase is only two or three hands per hour this would likely be enough to keep the rake the same (if not greater).


Now let's look at the effect of the reduced rake on this tighter (though still easily beatable game).


Here I don't have to guess as to the amount removed from the table; it has been fairly constant since day one. Approximately $60 per hour gets dropped. 80% of the pots are between $51 and $99; the remaining 20% is split between those under $50 and those over $100.


Let's get back to our hypothetical winning player who over an eight hour shift wins between 15 and 20 hands. He is paying (a minimum of) $3 per hour MORE in the higher raked game than he is with us.


If he is good enough to beat the "casino" game for one big bet ($12) per hour, he just got a $3/hr raise.


The difference is even more pronounced for the player who, while fairly solid, still has alot to learn; for him this disparity in rake could be the difference between winning and losing.


Finally, what effect does this difference have on the recreational player ?


As Mason Malmuth pointed out in "Poker Essays", even those players who can afford to lose get tired of having their brains beat in night after night. The lower rake will NOT make them into winning players. It won't even give them the opportunity to become break even players.


However it will allow them to have many more winning sessions, not to mention far fewer sessions where they get crushed.


We have a solid yet limited customer base; we cannot afford to lose players because they get tired of "never winning", and as far as I am aware of none of our patrons has ever quit the game for this reason.


The game runs seven nights a week; Monday thru Thursday there is usally only one table going and it generally runs from 8pm till 3 or 4 in the morning.


Starting on Friday at 8pm there are almost always two games going until late Sunday night.


Fifty plus hours with two tables up and another forty hours with one.


140 hours times $60 per hour divided by three partners; expenses run about 25% of the gross.


None of whom are complaining -:)


Neither are the players.


P.S. We are located less than a half hour away from a cardroom (two in fact) that has chosen to go with the 10% max. $4 deal.


They also treat their customers like s--t and have some of the worst dealers you've ever seen.


Supply and demand.

casino arizona is 5 per hand.


3 rake and 2! jackpot.


im mean if you play 3/6, you have to win 2BB/hour just to break even!


brad

Despite your math, I still think a $4 rake is a non-factor. It is very easy to overcome even in a low-limit game.

...but it's still better than a time charge. I play a local 5-10 game that rakes 10%/$5 max. I am beating the game but the rake doesn't help as there are a limited number of players there.


The rake clears maybe $150 per hour from the game, which is money gone forever. Considering I only buy in for $200 that seems like a huge hourly rake to me. I see this rake as money I could be stacking, or at least keeping the weaker players in longer giving me and the stronger players a better chance at getting their stacks. There is generally a limit to the number of times a losing player will re-load, and a big rake does not help this at all.


The MGM hotels like Bellagio and Mirage only rake 10% to a maximum of $3 which is nice. The placards next to the dealer show when they rake each dollar, i.e. $10 pot first $1, then $24 second dollar and if pot reaches $40 then rake final dollar (figures are my best guess, can't remember).


HOWEVER (a big however), the rake is a miniscule factor compared to the relative quality of play in any given game. I'd much rather play a weak game raking $5/10% than a tough game with no rake at all. I can sit in a game and do rather well, but all it takes is for 2 solid players to replace 2 busted fish and the fun is over. This much I know!

Raked games generally suck! To determine how much is actually to much for you,then you need to decide what your goals are.Do you want to do in the game ?,A) Make money? B)Pass time and entertain yourself.


If you answered A then you will probably want to start be aware of the impact the rake has in relation to the particular limit you intend playing at.The impact of the rake vary greatly from game to game.For example imagine a center dealt 2-4 HE game with a jackpot,they take a 10% $3 max & $1 JP.Typically this will cost you $17/hr ($14 if you do not tip).Now typically 2-4 games are not too dificult to outplay the field in.So how much do you need to outplay the field & still show a profit.$14-$17 means that you need to pull in an AVERAGE of 3.5-4.5 BB's/hr!,just to break even!!!(BTW this game ran for a few years in a N Seattle Cardroom & NO ONE beat the game!! except for the 4 people who hit big jackpots).If we look at the same rake structure in a 4-8 HE game you only have to pull in 1.75-2.25 BB's/hr in order to break even.As you look at bigger and bigger games that trend continues and what the rake costs you becomes smaller and smaller in terms of BB's!


Unfortunately the games generally become tougher as you play higher limits.The Peter Principle comes into play now.Our desire to make more and more $$ playing poker compels us to play in larger and larger games up to the point where we cannot beat the game.At this point we should know to back off a notch or two to find the "sweet spot" for us as an individual.Hopefully this is above 6-12 or so and the rake is not eating up to big a share of your profits!


The second case B)Pass time and entertain yourself is much simpler to evaluate.Wherever you enjoy spending time will do just fine.Some elements here could be 1)friendly dealers & floorpeople,2)diverse clientele,and most importantly 3)pretty waitresses to make a fuss over you /images/wink.gif(I am assuming a male player here but for the Lady players there are generally some hunky young dealers or Floormen about)

Overall clubs seem to be pricing the smaller games out of existance.It's kind of a shame too,but that's progress for you.When the online cardrooms hit the scene I was hopeful that they could offer games with a much lower rake than B&M cardrooms.Sorry to say greed has prevented them from doing so and paradoxically a majority of their players are very supportive of how much they are being gouged in this respect.Go figure?

Perhaps at some point an online operation will decide that "everyday low prices" in order to gain & maintain market share will work in their business plan.

Paradise (the only online cardroom I've played) rakes 5% $1.00 max on micro limits 5% $3.00 max mid limits and 2.5% $3.00 max high limits. No jackpot drop, no tipping. The dealer's a computer. You couldn't tip it if you wanted to. Maybe they could do better and still turn a profit, but it's still better than B&M cardrooms.

3 per hand is still way more than a time charge (at least regular 5 or 6 per half hour.)


brad

'but it's still better than a time charge.'


how do you figure? time charge is (10-12)*(8-10) or about 80-120 per hour, when you say rake is 150 per hour?


brad

I think it depends on how big the player base is. In Vegas, a $4.00 rake may be no issue. In areas with a smaller player pool (away from Vegas, CA, or AC) a higher rake means less players over time.

With a rake I only pay the house when I win; time charges accrue regardless of whether or not I drag a few pots. With the rake I pay $3-5 per pot I drag, and one hour I might drag 4 and the next hour none. The rake favors tight aggressive play where I enter few pots, and any pot in excess of $50 will result in the drop falling below 10%. Of course the pots I enter but do not win still contribute to the rake, but looking at pot odds makes decisions easier.


Something tells me that a game that raked $5 per pot would have a relatively large hourly charge, so your numbers may be a little low.


Some people seem to have adverse reactions to time charges so the rake helps keep the players happy. Happy opponents are a Good Thing.

No cardrooms with a time charge in my area.