Two More Quick Questions from WLLH

[MikeRand2000]

All:

I have purchased and am perusing Winning Low-Limit Hold’em to augment my reading of Hold’em Poker. Two quick questions:

1) In the beginning of the description of Check-Raise, Jones says the following: “You are on the big blind with AQo. There are three callers, and then a raise in a late position. You (correctly) call the raise. Now the flop comes Q75. At this point, you suspect you have the best hand. However, if you bet out immediately, you will be putting the 11th bet into the pot.” Am I missing something? I count 1 bet for the big blind posting, +3 bets for the callers, +2 for the raise, +1 for the call from the blind (to close pre-flop), and finally +1 for the bet from the blind to open the post-flop betting. Where am I screwing this up?
2) In reading both Slansky’s and Jones’s reviews of post-flop play, it seems that the order of pre-flop strategy (i.e. think about 4-6 factors, play accordingly) breaks down somewhat. Does anyone have a quick summary of what they think about post-flop? For example, do you still think about position as much? Or does that take a back seat to bluffing/semi-bluffing? I think both authors do a great job pre-flop of letting me know what I should think about and in what order (or how it all fits together). That is somewhat lacking in the post-flop discussion (for good reason, as the number of things to think about increases).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

MBR

[Cubswin]

1) 5 players saw the flop (i assume the the SB floded) for two bets each. 5 x 2 = 10 ....your bet here would be the 11th bet ....but if you want to get technical it is the 11.5 bet becasue of the SB

[Nottom]

1) the other players all call the bet as well.

2) Position is even more important post-flop, being able to take a free card or trap you opponent for extra bet with a raise are all position dependant. Not to mention the fact that in LP you can watch how tha action developes before deciding how to play your hand.

[MikeRand2000]

When they say "bets" are they talking about 1 unit of money, or are they just talking about a call/raise (regardless of the money)? In this case, I'm intepreting "bet" as being a fixed amount of money. Wouldn't this then be 3 bets for each of the "callers" (1 initial call + 2 to match the raised bet), 3 bets for me in the big blind (1 for posting the bb + 2 to call the raise), and 2 bets for the raiser? That would be a total of 14, which would make my opening the post-flop with a bet the 15th?

[BruceZ]

Wouldn't this then be 3 bets for each of the "callers" (1 initial call + 2 to match the raised bet), 3 bets for me in the big blind (1 for posting the bb + 2 to call the raise), and 2 bets for the raiser?

No, it's 2 bets for each of the callers (1 initial call + 1 to call the raise). A raise is only 1 bet more than a call for a total of 2 bets. In the big blind you have to put in 1 additional bet to call the raise in addition to the big blind you already posted. With 5 players in for 1 raise, that means they each put in 2 bets for a total of 10. Only if there was a reraise would there be 3 bets.

[MikeRand2000]

Ok, so just to confirm that I am on the same page as everyone else: regardless of the fact that the first bet would have cost $3 and the second bet $6, we are still calling both the initial call and the call of the raise 1 bet each for a total of two bets. If that is the case (and it makes sense), why does Jones mention pot odds of 11:1 and 13:2? 11:1 are the odds for the person to your left if you just bet as the first post-flop move. 13:2 are the odds for the person to your left if you raise as the first post-flop move. I would think that using these numbers to calculate odds, you'd have to take into account the $ amount of each bet (even if you only call it one bet).

[Nottom]

In a limit game all bets are fixed. In a 3/6 game for example. Preflop the blinds are generally $1 and $3, players will limp for $3 and if a player wants to raise he will make it an additional $3 for a total of $6, if a player wants to raise again he can raise another $3 for a total of $9.

In this case, there were 3 limpers ($9) a LP plar raised ($6), you call from the blind ($3blind+$3call) and the limpers call ($3 each = $9) This makes the pot a total of $30.

There are only 2 sized bets to worry about in a limit hold'em game. An sb is a small bet and is made during the pre-flop and flop betting rounds, a bb is a big bet and is made during the turn and river betting rounds. A bb=2*sb.

[BruceZ]

regardless of the fact that the first bet would have cost $3 and the second bet $6, we are still calling both the initial call and the call of the raise 1 bet each for a total of two bets.

The first bet is $3, and the raise is also $3 for a total of $6.

[MikeRand2000]

I get it now. I think my confusion was that if someone put in a raise, everyone had to put in the raised amount instead of the difference. Thanks all.

[rayrns]

Mike, lets look at it in terms of money.
5 players have put in two bets each (10 SB=small bets) at $3. This makes the pot at $30. If you are first to act in the second betting round, you will put in $3 and make the pot $33. Now the next person will be getting 11:1 pot odds. ($33/$3 = $11:$1) If he was drawing to a gutshot straight (4 outs) he needs pot odds better than 10.8:1. As he is getting 11:1 pot odds, it would be correct for him to call. If you do NOT bet he would be getting only 10:1 pot odds and thus incorrect for him to call looking for 4 outs.

Now just for a second lets assume you are going to act second instead of first. Another player bets, you are getting 11:1 pot odds. You believe the next person is on a draw to a straight. You raise. When you raise the pot looks like this. $30 plus the $3 bet to you. $33.00 Your raise to $6 puts the pot at $39. Now the straight drawing player will have to put up $6 to call your raise, giving him 39:6 pot odds. Or 6.5:1 odds. It would be incorrect for him to call.

Now I am going to change from money amounts to small bets. Remember each small bet is $3.
5 players have put in two small bets each. This makes the pot at 10 SB ($30). If you are first to act in the second betting round, you will put in one SB ($3) and make the pot 11 SB ($33). Now the next person will be getting 11:1 pot odds ($33/$3). If he was drawing to a gutshot straight (4 outs) he needs pot odds better than 10.8:1. As he is getting 11:1 pot odds, it would be correct for him to call. If you do NOT bet he would be getting only 10:1 pot odds and thus incorrect for him to call looking for 4 outs.

You can replace the money amounts, with SB's, for the second example and see how it works out.

I hope I have cleared this up a little. Or at least not muddied the water any more.