Who should show?

P1 (same as in the gossip post) is first to act, and bets the hand all the way. P2 (different from gossip post) calls all the way. After last bet and call, P1, says, Ace high, no pair. P2 says, I have a pair.


P1 holds his cards, waiting for P2 to show his pair. P2 waits for P1 to either show or muck. P1 gets upset, because he thinks P2 should show so he can muck. P2 says no way, you bet and I called, you should act first.


Finally, P1 mucks and tells the dealer he want's to see P2's hand. Since it is a called hand, he turns it over.


Comments?

My understanding is that the last person to show strength should show. I presume that P1 feels that P2 should show since both P1 and P2 have "verbally declared" their hands and P2 "represented" a better hand.


In my opinion P1 should have turned over his/her hand first instead of verbally declaring. P2 could then have either mucked or shown a better hand to take down the pot. Seems to me P1 mucked before anyone showed their cards which, in my humble opinion is a mistake.

P1 is a jerk. He bet and he was called. He should show his hand. If he wanted to see P2's hand all he had to do was turn over his "Ace high."


I think that, at Commerce, since it was bet and called, anyone is entitled to see either hand. I have never seen the bettor muck and then ask to see the remaining player's hand. Sometimes another player at the table will ask to do so.


What was the dealer doing during all this, watching TV?

If no one had spoken, then obviously P1 is entitled to show. I believe that the discussion of hand strengths does effect the etiquette. P1 announces his hand. At this point, P2 is within bounds to act deaf and just sit there and wait. But once P2 announces a hand that beats P1's declared hand, then the obligation to show shifts to P2.


For instance. Let's say there's a pair on board. I am P2. P1 says, I have ace-high. I say, "I have the nut flush."


After saying that I have P1's hand crushed, and since we all know what P1 has anyway (ace-high), would anyone think it proper etiquette for me to relinquish my implied right-to-wait by speaking, and then all of a sudden decide to make P1 turn over his ace-high, and then now I turn over my flush? That's really really bad form, IMO.


This action effectly says one of several things to P1:


1) I think you lied when you said ace-high and I want to see it


2) I wanted to tease you, by making you think that I lied about my flush, that's why I didn't turn it over, in order to give you a glimmer of hope that your ace-high is good, in other words, I am slowrolling you, just a little. And by the way, I really did have the flush. Neener neener.


3) Other equally jivo settings and results.


Yeah, this stuff if part of poker. But there's no room for even a smidge of it in top-class etiquette. As soon as two people state their hands, the better hand should immediately turn over. If you don't like that, then don't talk, just show when it's your turn.


Tommy

What if P1 says Ace high and P2 says small pair a flips them over, P1 then says oops, my mistake, I have a bigger pair, he has effectively made P2 show cards the rules say he could muck without showing (absent a specific request to see a called hand). I think that P2 is well within his rights here to get a muck or show from P1.


If the hands declared are ace high and nut flush as in Tommy's example, I think it speeds up the game for P2 to show and get it over with. I only play lower limits and I do not see these pissing contests too often but boy do they take the fun right out of playing.

P2 can avoid the ploy you talked about by just keeping quiet and asking to see the hand. Or just show his/her hand.


Since cards speak, from a rules standpoint it wouldn't make any difference what they said. But I agree with Tommy from an etiquette standpoint what P2 did was certainly in poor form ("neener neener" lol).

Well said. Personally, I think if you go to the river, and the actions over, all parties still involved with the pot should just turn their cards up.

What was the dealer doing during all this...?


Probably wishing he had paid more attention in that English as a Second Language class.

Sigh, as usual, Tommy nailed it. If nothing was said, P1 should have turned over. But since P2 declared the winner, the action shifted to him.


In the games I play, it isn't unusual for the guy who bet on the river to shrug, or try to get the other player to turn up. They aren't slow rolling, they just don't want to turn up a loser. I never do this. I either turn my cards up, or throw them in the muck.


An interesting situation occured later in this game. I was heads up with P1. I raised btf, he reraised. I called. I check raised him on the flop with a flush draw and a straight draw. I bet the rest of the way, but didn't even make a pair. Ater he called me on the river, I immediately turned up my hand. I won. AJh good.


What would he have done if I said, No Pair, he turned up his hand, and then I turned over the winner?

When P1 says "Ace high," if I'm P2 I turn over my hand that beats Ace high or I wait for Ace high to show it and then either turn over my winning hand or muck my loser. What I say ("no good" or "Ace-what?" should be irrelevant. We all don't know what P1 has anyway. All we know is what he says he has.


I don't think P2's declaration that he has P1 beat, either by saying he has the nut flush or a pair of deuces is jivo. P1 is called and has an obligation to turn over his hand. If he is discourteous enough to say "Ace high" without showing it, what happens thereafter is 100% his fault and he should still be required to show his "Ace high" before any other hand is shown. P2's speaking was a direct result of P1 speaking. The breach of etiquette was of P1's making.


I've seen this one a hundred times: bet and call. P1 says "One pair, your queens are good." P2 says "How high" P1 says "very small." P2 turns over pocket deuces. P1 soups. All this nonsense could be avoided by P1 simply showing his hand when called.


IMHO.

I think we're all agreed that once there's a bet and a call, the bettor should simply show his hand or muck it. The P1s should be discouraged from saying anything rather than showing their hand. The proper response from a P2 is to wait until P1 either shows his hand or mucks.


Now when a guy says "I missed," I usually turn my hand over when I'm P2 in the interest of courtesy and saving time. But there have been times when the "missed" hand beat my hand. (He missed the flush, but still had top pair.)


I still don't understand how the action shifts to P2 on the basis of his responding to a verbal declaration by P1. And I'm a person who would follow Tommy into the Valley of Death; he's my hero.

Andy,


Jumping to the general, in my view showdown etiquette is based on trust. When someone says ace-high, it means he has ace-high, and when someone says he missed, it means that he missed and that he genuinely does not like his chances of winning. Sometimes people get slowrolled, intentionally or accidentally. So it goes. Showdown etiquette based on the fear of being slowrolled is exactly the kind of slowdown etiquette that breeds slowrolling. That's why I am quick to extend the most generous showdown courtesy, which is, to deliberately NOT make others show their losers, declared, implied, shrugged, or otherwise indicated.


What I call good showdown etiquette is a form of cooperation in the Neumann game-theory sense. The risk is the occasional slowroll, almost always accidental, as when a player says "I missed" and I turn over ace-ten and then he shows AJ. The gains are extensive and lasting.


Tommy