David Sklansky Ate My Brain

[Guinness]

Just saw part two of the column posted and wanted to hear what everyone thought.

http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/wildholdemii.html

[Homer]

Thanks for the link.

Prepare to be bashed by others for no reason.

-- Homer

[Guinness]

Hope not. I didn't write the column, after all. It's just fodder for discussion, hopefully.

[Zeno]

Here are the last two paragraphs of the article:

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, the whole concept of grouping hands in the Sklansky manner is useless at best and at worst quite costly. And the book is filled with that kind of potentially expensive information. The idea, for example, that you should throw away K-Q suited for one raise is utter, lunatic insanity. No one ever does this, nor should they. And if, miraculously, there was a game so tight that you knew you were drawing slim with a K-Qs versus a raise from some moss-covered rock to your right, then why, oh why, would you ever want to play in that game? You'd be lucky even to beat the rake in a game like that. And the book is peppered with examples just like this.



I understand there are a bunch of poker players out there who strongly disagree with me, who feel that I have misinterpreted the Wisdom from the Master and defiled Holy Cyberspace with my Unbelief. All I can say to them is this: using the hard-won knowledge you've mined from your well-thumbed copy of Sklansky's books, I hereby invite you to come to my club and play in my game and take my money. Make me a believer.



[/ QUOTE ]


His name is Ephraim Rosenbaum and he lives in New York City - Any Volunteers?

-Zeno

[Homer]

I would, but New York City is a hellhole. And you know how I feel about hellholes.

[BottlesOf]

Haven't read Hold 'Em Poker or HPFAP yet, but I don't often fold KQs to a single raise pf. Not the limits I play.

That being said, I have learned so much from these fourms, love TOP, can't wait to read some more 2+2 titles, and would trust Sklansky with my kids...if I had any.

[chesspain]

[ChipWrecked]

[CrackerZack]

If I had more energy or no internet or girlfriend, I'd take him up.

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
but accumulating chips will be like watching a glacier melt. Is that really why you're at the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well...yes...to make money, right?
Isn't this man inferring that patience is NOT a virtue?

as Sklansky says: "He might be there to have fun, and it is not fun to play proper poker. It's too boring - you don't play enough hands" [HPFAP, 1999:153]

It may be "boring", but i'm sure at the table this guy's talking about, we could mop it up in due course, right??

[M2d]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recal David, Mason, Ray or any of the 2+2 writers ever giving a cookbook solution to poker. Why then, do people take it as such? When I read a sample hand in one of the books, I don't say "Hm... Sklansky said I should raise with this holding, so I will always raise." rather, I try to see what the rationale behind the move is and apply it to similar situations. kind of like the old "give the man a fish.../teach him to fish..." saying.

When I read reviews like this, or hear people dismissing the 2+2 writings in this manner, I thank the gods above for people who can not or will not see beyond their own hands. If they refuse to play correctly, then their stacks will sit in front of me eventually.

[Alobar]

Throw away KQs for one raise?? Wouldnt sklansky say to toss KQo but play KQs? Especially if there are limpers, or if you know there wil be other cold callers behind you?

I would love to see David accept this idiots challenge, and then have like a internet broadcast of the game...that would be sweet.

I've been playing hold 'em for 3 months, I "KNOW" I suck, but even I would love to sit down at this guys table if its as bad as he says it is. (If I had the proper bankroll) and I bet even I could clean up.

Heh, I should email this guy, tell him my experience and then bet him I could beat his table. I'd be an A-hole table coach on every hand, and quote sklansky every time I dragged a pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mangatang]

KQs is a Group 2 hand. I don't recall HPFAP ever suggesting folding a group two hand for a single raise. Am I missing something, or do all these S&M critics just not know how to read?

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
But I submit to you, the poker community, that when Sklansky suggests that hands like pocket 7's and Axs be played the same way in the same position, he's failing his readers. Those are two very, very different hands and must be played as such

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I remember hearing several times Mason pointing out the differences between small pocket pairs and suited Aces/suited connectors.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bottles:

The book doesn't say to do this. On page 20 it says:

[ QUOTE ]
Against an extremely tight player in a tough game, it may be correct to throw away some of the Group 2 hands, such as A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif and K/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif. (Remember that this chapter refers to early-position decisions.)


[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that David is still be looking for a meal.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Styles]

One neophyte's opinion.

To paraphrase a line from HPFAP "if you know a player plays as described in this text", this type of player seems like the only type of player the author thinks he can read and the basis for the invitation. This reminded me of the essays on "Should you fear poker books?" in Mason's Essays and in 'the Poker Mind'. What struck me immediately is that the author labels players (and is scared of them) for reasons other than how they think about the game (drunk, filthy rich, etc).

And also that the books are only outrageously overpriced paperbooks if you're not paying for them out of your winnings /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I love how serious the actors are in that movie, class-ic!

They need a chud post icon for the forums too.

al

[MaxPower]

Any credibiilty this guy had is gone. Read this passage:

For example, a maniac sees a hand like A-9 of clubs and thinks he's got a monster. Hell, he's played a lot worse, right? So he raises with it. Now at this point, you're crushing the maniac with your A-Q. But when six other people call, suddenly you're drawing almost dead. Thus a hand like 3-4 suited can go up tremendously in value because, most of the time, the majority of the hands will be congregated at the higher end of the deck, leaving your cards live. Same goes if the flop should come A-K-8 rainbow. When you have the 3-4, you can easily chuck it in the muck. And that, as you should know, can save you mucho dinero in the long run.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]

Any credibiilty this guy had is gone. Read this passage:

For example, a maniac sees a hand like A-9 of clubs and thinks he's got a monster. Hell, he's played a lot worse, right? So he raises with it. Now at this point, you're crushing the maniac with your A-Q. But when six other people call, suddenly you're drawing almost dead. Thus a hand like 3-4 suited can go up tremendously in value because, most of the time, the majority of the hands will be congregated at the higher end of the deck, leaving your cards live. Same goes if the flop should come A-K-8 rainbow. When you have the 3-4, you can easily chuck it in the muck. And that, as you should know, can save you mucho dinero in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. I'd raise 34s on the button in a heartbeat with 6 limpers to me (or early raiser and 5 coldcallers).

[CrackerZack]

huh?

You have a maniac that will nearly certainly cap if you 3-bet on the button with your little suited crap which relies on implied odds. So you'd kill your own implied odds by allowing him to cap? Rig, you're one of the old school posters and a very good player (at least as I can tell from your posts) but if this is serious, I think you're taking the "i'm a better player so i can add some more hands" adage too far.

folding seems about right to me.

[Gildersneeze]

I'd say "see if you can make that one of your advertisement hands."

Call that pre-flop ridiculous action, and then if it doesn't get hit on the flop, muck it, but muck it face up.

Go ahead and let the maniacs and loosey-gooseys think you think small connectors are really great starting hands. Your premiums will get a lot more play when you raise from up front. At least, that's what I've noticed.

[rigoletto]

ou have a maniac that will nearly certainly cap if you 3-bet on the button with your little suited crap

Point well taken. Sustitute 'raise in a heartbeat' with 'call in a heartbeat'!

[MaxPower]

I don't think calling here is a great play, but perhaps I'm wrong. The problem I have is with the reasons he gives for calling - The fact that his 3s and 4s are live. In the article he is talking about playing with multiple maniacs, so the pot may still be raised and reraised.

He seems to suggest here and elsewhere that you can play suited connectors for any number of bets if the pot is multiway against maniacs.

[MrBlini]

From Part II:
[ QUOTE ]
You want to be aggressive, and you want to use your new rich friend as a springboard to force other people out of the pot and isolate him.

[/ QUOTE ]
What, did the other players suddenly get so tame that they will just get out of the way of an isolation raise? From Part I, I was under the impression that the place was full of maniacs:

[ QUOTE ]
Adolpho is so wild and aggressive, he makes me look like David Sklansky, and I am a very aggressive player (so much so that when I sit down, there's often a mad scramble to fill the nearest open seat to my left because people don't want to have to guess what I'm going to do in a pot with them).

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
But knowing how to play a guy like Adolpho is just the tip of the iceberg: you have to know how to play a table full of Adolphos.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
...Aimee would raise with nothing, Jim would reraise out of contempt for her, and then, unless someone else did, Aimee capped it out of spite.

[/ QUOTE ]