Party 2/4 Boat Review

[LetsRock]

Party 2/4, exteremely passive table, rarely more than 4 to flop and many pots were drug uncontested on flop, no reads on anybody as I'm new to Party and have been at this table a short time.....

I'm on the sb w/6/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/club.gif, UTG limp, 1 EP limp, I complete, BB chk

Flop: 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Made my set! I bet (actually expecting the table to fold), BB call, UTG Raise, EP fold, I 3-bet, BB call, UTG call.

I'm a little concerned for this much action, but put the BB on a straight or flush draw and UTG on 2-pr.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif [6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

Yikes, I made a boat but, UTG could have made a boat, probably bigger.

I check BB bets?, UTG call?, I call while considering my river options.

River: T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif [5/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
I liked the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif hoping someone was fishing for a flush, but wasn't quite sure how aggressive I could be with it considering my concerns on the turn.

I check (still testing the waters) BB bet, UTG call, I raise, both call. ( I probably would have just called a 3-bet)

My boat held up and it turns out UTG flopped a straight (78), don't know what BB had.

I have a general tendancy (based on many comments on my posts) is to be too passive, so I'm focusing on plays where this tendancy comes into play.

I'm in bad position with no real reads so I felt a little caution was in order. I don't think I would have got any more bets into the pot as a Turn c/r would have likely resulted in a check to me, unless BB was on a flush draw and hit it.

Was my turn play too weak?
Was my river play too aggressive?
Or was this a good mix of caution and aggression?

[GuitarMarc]

Nice hand. I would have feared the flopped straight so I wouldn't raise there. On the turn, I would think the full house is now the best hand, I would have tried for a check raise. Your river play was good.

If people had stayed in the hand after you checkraised the turn, I would bet out the river as they might not let you checkraise again.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Yikes, I made a boat but, UTG could have made a boat, probably bigger.



[/ QUOTE ]

The only bigger boat he could have here is 9s full of 5s...which would mean that he had pocket nines, which would mean that you were behind on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
I check (still testing the waters) BB bet, UTG call, I raise, both call. ( I probably would have just called a 3-bet)


[/ QUOTE ]

If you really checked to "test the waters," what about those waters made you decide to raise?

How good of a recollection do you have of this hand? Your post seems to give a lot of conflicting reads that make your play somewhat nonsensical.

McGee

EDIT: To answer your questions, yes, you were too weak on the turn. No, you weren't too aggressive on the river (particularly how passively you played the turn), and no, it wasn't a good mix of caution and aggression.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have feared the flopped straight so I wouldn't raise there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know he said the table was passive, but I'm not going to put UTG on 87 just because he raised the flop. This is a pretty easy threebet.

McGee

[Rico Suave]

Hey Lets Rock:

Flop: I like betting out and 3 betting like you did.

Turn: Quote Yikes, I made a boat but, UTG could have made a boat, probably bigger.

After the flop you thought he had 2 pair (So he held 96,65,95) and now the 5 pairs, you think he has a bigger boat? You now put him on 99? All this from one preflop raise and a call of your 3-bet. I think you are putting him on a very narrow range of hands here. In fact the only hands that beat you hear are 99 and 55. You gotta raise, 3-bet, cap the turn IMO. Ram & Jam.

River: Considering your turn play, your check raise is good.

I know that you were reading the table as passive, and so you were interpreting any action at all as monster hands. But even if UTG is the rock of all rocks, I am raising ramming and jamming on the turn, and may be slow down on the river if he keeps coming at me.

Nice hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Rico

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
After the flop you thought he had 2 pair (So he held 96,65,95) and now the 5 pairs, you think he has a bigger boat? You now put him on 99? All this from one preflop raise and a call of your 3-bet. I think you are putting him on a very narrow range of hands here. In fact the only hands that beat you hear are 99 and 55. You gotta raise, 3-bet, cap the turn IMO. Ram & Jam.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I guess I forgot to mention that I hadn't exactly eliminated the possibility of 55 or 99 (especially 55) from UTG. It wouldn't have been completely out of line for UTG to have backed down his small set vs. a bigger one.

Thanks

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I check (still testing the waters) BB bet, UTG call, I raise, both call. ( I probably would have just called a 3-bet)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you really checked to "test the waters," what about those waters made you decide to raise?


[/ QUOTE ]

Although I didn't mention it in my post, I hadn't discounted th possibility of one of the opponents had 55 or 99 (especially 55). It wouldn't surprise me to find someone back off of the small set on a 3-bet on the flop.

My "water test" was to see if UTG was slow playing quads on the turn. When there was no raise on the river, I fely that my hand was good.

I'm sorry that you feel that my play was "nonsensical". That statement I will reserve the right to disagree with.

thanks for your response.

[LetsRock]

I'm trying very hard not to see the monsters under the bed. I did account for the possibility of the flopped straight, and that is part of the reason for my 3-bet. "OK, what do you REALLY have?"

If the flop had been capped, I would have had to play defense the rest of the hand.

You're right: If I had checkraised the turn and didn't get 3-bet, I would have bet out on the river and recieved (at most - BB might have given up on the river if bet c/r the turn) the same number of bets that I got anyway.

Thanks

[Aces McGee]

Hi LetsRock

Didn't mean to call your play nonsensical. Not sure how I let that slip in there.

My point was that without your complete reads and logic behind your plays, it appeared that you were betting and checking purely at random. If you were worried about the bigger boat, why 3bet the flop? Did you really think he would fold a worse hand in that scenario?

Sorry if I offended...I should be more careful with my word choice.

McGee

[Nottom]

You need to raise the turn here. Not only do you very likely have the best hand, but a flush draw will call the raise and you will collect an extra bet if the flush doesn't hit. Also if the flush does hit and nobody was on the draw you will not get much action on the river (from the made straight in this case).

I wouldn't worry about a bigger boat for at least a couple more raises. A hand like A5, 89, or 77 is much much more likely.

[LetsRock]

None taken!

[ QUOTE ]
My point was that without your complete reads and logic behind your plays, it appeared that you were betting and checking purely at random. If you were worried about the bigger boat, why 3bet the flop? Did you really think he would fold a worse hand in that scenario?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't concerned about a boat on the flop. My flop 3-bet wasn't a "go-way" raise, it was a "OK what do you have?" raise. It wasn't until the board paired with the 5 on the turn that I became concerned.

I tried to put as much of my reads and logic in as I could. I did the best I could without rambling on and tried to give you the best "on-thespot" reaction as I could after the fact.

I am the kind of person who tends to have "some" reason for everything I do, and not just in poker. I rarely make any kind of move on a whim - I had a reason for every decision and I completely stand behind the way I played that hand.

But I'm here to learn and was hoping to see if I was too cautious in this spot. (Here I go rambling...)

Thanks again for your response.

[LetsRock]

Not to argue, but I collected 6BB on the turn and river. Considering how it played out, do you think I would have collected more if I c/r the turn and bet the river?

I think equal or less unless a flush draw hits.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
It wasn't until the board paired with the 5 on the turn that I became concerned.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right. And at this point...in your original post, you indicated you were concerned about a bigger boat. But the only full house that could be bigger was if the guy was holding 99...which you didn't seem to read him for on the flop.

Anyway, keep posting...sorry for the confusion on my end.

McGee

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Considering how it played out, do you think I would have collected more if I c/r the turn and bet the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is a good chance you get to cap the turn against the straight and a made flush might raise your river bet. You very well might of made the most you could in this situation, but I think you get the same 6 bets my way with a better chance of getting more.

[lil']

I'm in bad position with no real reads so I felt a little caution was in order.

You have a set. No caution was in order at any point in this hand. Bet and raise first and ask questions later.