A-Rod to the Red Sox (stay tuned)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Tom Hicks just blinked. The offer has been on the table for over a week to trade Manny for A-Rod. The rangers just made a counter-offer, asking the Sox to pick up $5M per year on Manny's contract.

All that's left is negotiating the details and A-Rod's coming to Beantown.

[B-Man]

I don't see the Red Sox paying Manny $5mm pey year to play somewhere else, even if it means we have A-Rod. Nor would I agree to do that if I was Theo.

I think Theo knows that Texas is desparate to move A-Rod, and that Texas has no other options (because A-Rod will only agree to be traded to Boston or the Yankees, and the Yankees don't want him). When push comes to shove, Texas will agree to a straight-up trade for Manny, with no (or very minor) additional cash components.

The way things are shaping up, the Red Sox may win 115 games next season.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I don't see the Red Sox paying Manny $5mm pey year to play somewhere else

They won't have to pay 5, but they'll have to pay something. My bet is they'll pay 3. It would be naive to expect Hicks to make the deal straight up. He just admitted he wants to make it. Neither side will dig in their heels and kill it now.

Both sides want this done. The Sox do not want any part of Manny and Hicks needs to save every $ he can (especially next year when he has a very real threat of $0 revenue from the Stars).

This deal is a win-win. Theo and Lucchino understand that the goal is to win a World Series in 2004.

[Lottery Larry]

Not to jinx you more than you already are- i came from Chicago, so i have a problem with goats- but you know what will happen.

Red Sox/Rangers make a deal, Shilling goes to meet A-Rod at the airport, a crazed NY Yankees driver hits their car... and both are out for the year.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Yeah, but that won't happen until they're already in the World Series.

[andyfox]

With the Dodgers, for Kevin Brown? Or with the Red Sox for one more year as the DH?

[B-Man]

With the Dodgers, for Kevin Brown? Or with the Red Sox for one more year as the DH?

My best guess is traded to L.A. or Anaheim for some cheaper young players or prospects, but definitely not for anyone like Kevin Brown--I don't think they'll take on any more big salaries if they land A-Rod (and they are still in the hunt for Folke).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

My best guess is they trade him wherever they get the best deal for him. Young arms, maybe a right fielder (moving Nixon to left). It gives them options.

[Clarkmeister]

Gammons on ESPN last night said the ARod deal would be predicated on an Anaheim deal including Nomaaahhhhh.

[Tyler Durden]

Right before Schilling is slated to pitch Game 7 and ARod is returning from seeing orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews in Atlanta who clears him to play in tonight's game.

[DanS]

Nomar is clutch. A-Rod is not. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Dan

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Nomar is clutch.

Huh? He couldn't see the Mendoza Line with a telescope after the last week in August last year, and absolutely stunk up the playoffs with men on base.

Nomar is a very good player, but A-Rod is simply the best player on the planet.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

To be fair to our Cubs fan friend, the Sox and Cubs have very different blueprints for frustration. The Cubs rarely are in the hunt, and when they are, they screw up before the big dance. The Sox are more maddening. They're almost always in the hunt and screw up right on the brink of triumph.

[andyfox]

Garciaparra for Troy Glaus and Jard Washburn. At least that's the rumor in today's L.A. Times.

The Dodgers have apparently offered Odalis Perez. Were I the Sox, I'd sure prefer Washburn and Glaus.

But I still don't quite understand why the Red Sox, who won 95 games last year and picked up Curt Schilling and might be on the verge of acquired Keith Foulke, feel the need to add A-Rod to replace Nomar. A-Rod's the best player in the game, but Nomar ain't exactly chopped liver. Maybe the desire to unload Manny is overwelming and, hell, why not get the best player in the word for him.

As for Nomar being clutch, he had a terrrible September and a worse October last year. I think he swings at too many bad pitches to be a great clutch player.

If the deals go through, in the aggregate it will be one of the biggest blockbusters of all-time.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Garciaparra for Troy Glaus and Jard Washburn.

I will need nothing else for Christmas. Other than to put Steinbrenner in my 2004 dead pool. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]

Nomar is a very good player, but A-Rod is simply the best player on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except for some guy named Bonds.

[Nottom]

Bonds is great, but I would much rather have A-rod on my team next year than Barry.

[andyfox]

Well that's an interesting thought. Suppose the Giants would take Manny straight-up for Bonds. And suppose the Rangers would take Nomar straight up for A-Rod. Which deal would do you think would benefit the Sox the most (forgetting salaries, just talking on the field)?

I would imagine the A-Rod deal would be safer, in that Bonds will be 40 years old next year.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm not talking about who you'd rather have in the future. At his age, there are many players I'd rather have on my roster than Bonds, for obvious reason.

The initial post I replied to said A-Rod was the best player in the game. Since he hasn't ever had a better single season than Bonds, I fail to see how that is possible.

OPS
Year - ARod - Barry
1996 - 1.044 - 1.076
1997 - 0.846 - 1.031
1998 - 0.920 - 1.047
1999 - 0.943 - 1.006
2000 - 1.026 - 1.128
2001 - 1.021 - 1.378
2002 - 1.015 - 1.381
2003 - 0.996 - 1.278

And ARod has had TONS more protection around him in the lineup as well both in Seattle and in Texas. He's great, but Bonds is in another universe.

[andyfox]

"And ARod has had TONS more protection around him in the lineup as well both in Seattle and in Texas"

This is one reason, though, why Bonds has such a high OPS: with the likes of Benito Santiago and J.T. Snow hitting behind him, as opposed to Juan Gonzalez or Rafael Palmiero or Edgar Martinez, he walks an incredible number of times.

That said, Bonds is no worse than the 3rd greatest player of all time. For those who wish to start an argument, I rank only Babe Ruth and Willie Mays above him.

[Zeno]

Were is Ty Cobb? my favorite misanthrope.

-Zeno

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Perhaps, but A-Rod's not juiced.

[B-Man]

That said, Bonds is no worse than the 3rd greatest player of all time. For those who wish to start an argument, I rank only Babe Ruth and Willie Mays above him.

I'm game.

Bonds is the greatest player of his era (though A-Rod may surpass him in 8-10 years), and probably one of the 10 best players ever, but he is not in the top 3.

As Rob Neyer correctly stated, for the 8 years prior to 2001, Bonds was merely the best player in baseball. Prior to that, he was a good to very good player.

From 2001-2003, at the ripe age of 36-38, he suddenly turned into a modern-day Babe Ruth.

How could that be?

I am certain Bonds used steroids. I can't prove it, but I am quite sure it is true. I also belive McGwire, Sosa and others took steroids, but that is irrelevant.

Bonds was a first-ballot Hall of Famer without the juice. With the juice, late in his career, he's turned into Babe Ruth.

I discount the last 3 years because of the steroid factor.

How many home runs would Ted Williams have hit had he used steroids? Hell, how many home runs would Ted have hit if he didn't miss 5 prime years? He might have broken the Babe's record before Aaron.

Williams' average, OBP and slugging percentages are all significantly better than Bonds', even with Bonds putting up Nintendo numbers the last 3 years. Bonds obviously is a better fielder, but defense is overrated unless you are discussing C, SS or CF (anyone not named Manny can play LF, IMO).

Bonds didn't have to cheat to get into the Hall of Fame. Sure it has pumped up his numbers, but in my mind it has also tarnished his legacy.

[andyfox]

Great post with many excellent points.

Who, other than Williams and Ruth, would you rate over Bonds? Gehrig, Aaron, Musial, Mantle, Hornsby, Wagner, Cobb, Speaker?

I ask because, despite your ridiculous political opinions /images/graemlins/wink.gif, your baseball expertise is second to none on this forum.

[andyfox]

In the top ten, for sure. But not in the top five.

If you've never read Al Stump's article where he told about Cobb driving in the blizzard to go gambling, it's spectacular reading, probably the greatest sports article ever written. (It was reenacted in the move Cobb.)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

One might also make a case for Josh Gibson.

[B-Man]

Andy, the feeling is mutual--on both counts! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I would definitely put Ruth, Williams and Mays above Bonds. In the mid 90s, I truly believed Ken Griffey, Jr. would enter this discussion... but he never made it. Interesting that Griffey, Jr. was on the All-Century Team and Bonds (rightfully so, at the time) was not.

As for where I think Bonds stands with respect to the others, I would have to give it some serious thought and study the numbers... so I'll have to get back to you.

[DougBrennan]

Two cents worth from a daily Bonds watcher...

Andy, it is true that with better protection Bonds' OB percentage would go down some, but his power statistics would go through the roof, particularly RBIs. And take note that even with Jeff Kent in an MVP year providing protection, managers still walked Bonds to get to Kent.

Given the success of left-handed hitters through the years at Fenway, I think it is safe to assume that Bonds would help the Sox more than A-rod. No telling what his Fenway numbers would look like, but they would likely be astronomical.

If Brian Sabean were to trade Bonds for Ramirez...ugh, I can't even finish the thought.

[andyfox]

Just heard that it's "certain" (FWIW) that the Angels will sign Bartolo Colon (4 years, $48,000,000). If indeed they do, that would seem to lessen their need for Washburn, which would seem to make a deal with the Red Sox involving Washburn (or Ortiz?) more likely, which would seem to push the whole thing along. Maybe.

[andyfox]

All my baseball books are packed up since we're moving. But, FWIW, here is Win Shares per 648 plate appearances for the top 12 players:

Babe Ruth 39.92
Mickey Mantle 36.95
Ted Williams 36.74
Honus Wagner 36.16
Ty Cobb 35.79
Barry Bonds 34.56
Rogers Hornsby 34.33
Tris Speaker 34.05
Joe Jackson 33.48
Willie Mays 33.30
Lou Gehrig 32.80
Joe DiMaggio 32.69

I'm not sure whether this includes Bonds' most recent years or not.

[JTG51]

Are you sure?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Not 100%, but he sure doesn't have the look.

[andyfox]

John Henry has "lashed out" at Nomar's agent. I remember a few years back when the Red Sox had handled a few things in their usual way when Mr. Duquette was running things and Nomar said, "No wonder nobody wants to play here." I wonder what Nomar's really thinking now, despite his protestations that he wants to play the rest of his career with the Sox.

The signing of Colon does make some Angel pitchers available, but one wonders if they can afford Nomar, having shelled out close to $70,000,000 for Colon and Escobar. Perhaps this puts the Dodgers in a better position to make a play for Nomar, if indeed the A-Rod/Manny deal gets off the ground.

Meanwhile, Gary Sheffield has apparently ingratiated himself with The Boss and that deal is not done yet.