since you all liked the J2 so much...

[mike l.]

here's a K2s dark betting hand for ya. 7 handed 20-40. some crappy player who has been raising entirely too much w/ hands like A4o, Q9o, worse, and better openraises from the cutoff. i have bought the button (meaning posted $20 live plus $10 dead just to the left of the button, and im the only blind) and have Kc2c. it's folded to me and i decide to 3 bet. he calls. heads up.

i bet the flop dark. it comes A42 all diamonds. he peeks at his cards and raises, i 3 bet. he calls.

i bet the turn dark. it comes Th. he calls.

the river is 8h. i check.

comments?

[mike l.]

some of you are wondering why i play a hand like this sometimes. here are two reasons:

i have AA in the sb. okay player openraises mp, folded to me and i 3 bet, back to him and he calls.

i bet dark. the flop is Q96. he raises, i 3 bet, he 4 bets, i 5 bet, he calls. i bet the turn dark.

turn is J. he calls. i bet the river dark.

it's a J he calls. he flashes 88.

then i have TT utg. i openraise. loosey calls, tighty calls. blinds fold. 3 of us. i bet the flop dark.

flop is J54. i bet, loosey raises, tighty folds, i 3 bet. loosey calls. i bet the turn dark.

turn is 6. he raises, i 3 bet, he calls. i bet the river dark.

river is 6. he calls. he flashes 88.

so that's why i bet dark. i almost never bluff anymore. i just value bet marginal hands and get paid off. i played 7 hours yesterday and when i came home i realised WOW i didnt bluff even ONCE. i couldnt believe it. it's starting to make sense now.

[Ulysses]

mike, you know I like this kind of nonsense more than most around here.

But I can't help but think that when guys are willing to go 3 bets w/ you on both the flop and turn w/ less than top pair, well, you're probably giving too much action when you lose.

Sure, that TT hand is cool when he shows you 88 at the end. But doesn't that hand play out the same way when loosey has J9s? That's not as cool.

I can relate to all this, because lots of guys play like your opponents around here. And I used to love getting right in there with 'em. But then I started tightening up a bit while still playing very aggressively. Now, by 2+2 standards, I'm still very loose. And I definitely don't have a rock image around here by any means (any of the Bay Area 2+2ers can attest to that) and get plenty of action. But there's a certain group of guys, the most important group to me - those who can put you to some tough decisions, who now no longer like to put me to the test. And when they do raise the turn, they'll often do things like fold to a 3-bet in situations where they are drawing very live against me. I like that. I like being able to manipulate situations to get people to fold when I want them to fold and call when I want them to call. The less I screw around with marginal hands, the more I get to do that.

And most importantly, I make more money this way.

[mike l.]

"I like being able to manipulate situations to get people to fold when I want them to fold and call when I want them to call."

i got the second half of it perfect. southern california has slowly painfully brutally weened me off even thinking about the getting someone to fold thing though. i defy you to cruise down here and think youll get anyone to fold. ever.

[Boopotts]

I don't think you need to justify this kind of play, or in any way explain it. I'm convinced you're a long term winner in the game, and I'm sure you've found a style that works for you.

What's important-- at least from my perspective--is that this style of play, while effective, just isn't very interesting; or, to be more specific, isn't critical to a solid understanding of what it takes to play winning poker. Why? Because in the long run I'm convinced the net effect of playing this style is that you add marginally to your profits, perhaps, but add a ton to your variance. In a way, poker reminds me of Hinduism-- There are a thousand paths to nirvana. Beating the game, IMO, isn't rocket science; all you have to do is play slightly better (on average) starting hands then your opponents, have a halfway decent post flop game, and you almost can't help but win.

If the winners on these boards have two things in common, these are it. Which means the rest of it-- and by this I mean the nuts and bolts of our general strategies-- is really white noise. Not that I in any way disapprove of your post, since I always enjoy your analysis and commentary. I just wanted to make a general point about what is and isn't important about poker, since it's not uncommon for the more inexperienced players on these boards to forget to look for the forest through the trees.

[mike l.]

well put now shut up. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i mean, it's almost as if im trying to teach intermediate players how to play bad wink wink.

seriously though, variance sucks. yeah.

[andyfox]

There's certainly some truth in that So. Calif. players just don't like folding as much as players in Vegas, for example. But part or it may also be how your opponents perceive you. They've never seen me bet blind on the turn with J-2. There are players I play against who will always fold without an ace when an ace hits the flop and I bet. Always. And there are players who will always call me down with pocket deuces with a board of Q-J-9-8-7 because they figure I have A-K. Always. So sometimes I run the ball, sometimes I pass, and sometimes I punt; different strokes for different folks and all that. I'm not saying you don't, just that I don't think I need to do very much at all to get players I want to play against me to do so.

Since the guys here do like to call so much, I don't think I have to do anything much to induce them to call me down when I want them to. They want to anyway. Since I don't limp very much, they see that I raise with some pretty loose holdings; they don't get as far as figuring out I was 2 off the button and I could tell both the cut-off and button weren't interested and the two blinds were the two tightest players in the casino. All they remember is that I raised with Q-9s.

[elysium]

hi mike
oh for crying out loud. will you freaking at least open your eyes? who is filling you full of these ideas? you missed the flop. time to fold and go on to the next hand.

[brad]

'it's folded to me and i decide to 3 bet. he calls. heads up.'

this is really the crux of it right here. i mean, come on. are you really ever gonna check the flop?

so by betting 'dark', as opposed to waiting for the flop and then auto betting, you are basically just 'personalizing' it. heh

in my experience against the vast majority of players it has two effects

a) they call more often

b) they raise less (far less) (could be a function of players strength)

[felson]

Can you tell us how the hand turned out?

[mike l.]

he checked the river behind and my hand was good. he didnt show anything but a big dumb frown. and he badly overplayed flopped top pair a few rounds later against my pocket aces because of this hand.