two 88 flop decisions

[Elizabeth]

A typical online 2/4 game. Loose, maybe 1/3 hands are raised preflop.

I limp utg with 88. 6 players, including the small blind, see the flop.

Flop is JJ8 rainbow. Blinds check to me.

Only one thought really stuck in my mind - with 6 players in the pot, there's no need to get fancy. Is there any reason to risk a free card to 6 people?

The other thought is that this dangerous flop, which lacks draws, is going to kill my action anyway - unless there's a good jack out there. I might as well bet to find that jack.


Later I get 88 in the cutoff. first 3 players limp, next player raises. I am the only cold caller, and the blinds and limpers call. So it's 7 players in the pot, for 2 bets each.

flop is 952 rainbow. It's checked around to me. I can take the free card or I can bet to increase my chances of winning.

On one hand, the 8s likely need to improve in a big multiway pot, *and* a 9 could be out there. On the other hand, the pot is big and giving a a free card is like giving up on the pot ... because if another overcard comes, or if there's any action, I am folding. If I'm going to play the 8s, I have to bet on the flop.

The correct question becomes, I think, whether or not the size of the pot warrants playing 88 like it might be best.

Thanks for your comments!
Liz

[Bob T.]

Hand 1, I would bet, and hopfully, there are some Jack with good kicker hands out there, and I can threebet, or checkraise the turn.

Hand 2, Bet, hope the button raises with AK, and clears the field for you. After that, you have to play poker to figure out what to do.

[rharless]

Hand 2

Bob I don't think the button is in this hand. She is the "only cold caller" and she's in the CO, so button must have folded.

Elizabeth, I would check the 2nd hand on the flop. I doubt anyone folds on that board and really the reason to bet here would be to make overcards fold. Even if you are in the lead now, there can't be many cards that look good on the turn and river.

If the turn is similarly ragged and checked to you, then a turn bet (or raise) is a little more meaningful.

Preflop comments for hand 2 -- I think cold calling in this situation is fine. I think it's also worth 3-betting -- if you are going to cold call, then one extra SB will definitely buy you the button (your cold call entices the button to stay in), probably thin the preflop field somewhat, and will help to define the raiser's hand for you. That's quite a bargain for 1SB, the difference over cold calling.

[Bob T.]

Bob I don't think the button is in this hand. She is the "only cold caller" and she's in the CO, so button must have folded.


Oops, a lot of this going around today. Bad reading on my part. OK, she has the button, and it is checked to her. I think I would still bet. At least if I get checkraised on this street, I can play with that knowledge. Any overcards, or for that matter, any smaller pairs that I get to fold at any point is good for my hand. If I check here, and then get bet into on the turn, I have little idea how to play correctly. I think the bet here, might be characterized as a value/information bet. I may very well be ahead, I want to fold as many hands as possible, hopefully everyone. If I get checkraised, I at least have that information to use on a cheap street.

[rharless]

I guess the crux of the matter is, will overcards fold? If the bet does get them to fold then I think a bet is good. But on the 9-5-2 rainbow board, with 15SBs in the pot, I think everyone is probably hanging on for the ride for one more SB.

They can't fold if you don't give them the opportunity, though, and I guess that's worth one SB. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Elizabeth]

Sorry I wasn't clear, Bob, but rharless is right. The button folded preflop. Also, the preflop raiser is on my right. On the flop, he is next to last to act and he checked it to me.

So, I have 6 opponents, a 12 SB pot, and a hand with a chance of being best, but a smaller chance of actually winning. Is this pot big enough to invest more chips to save what equity I can?

I'm going to try a little math here to see if that helps ...
If I check, I have a 2 outer to a very stong hand. That's about 5% winning chances right there.

Betting is risking 1 to gain 12, so I think I need to increase my winning chances 7-8% to get this bet back. I don't think I increase it that much - because I'm not even sure I can force low overcards out - but maybe I'm wrong.

[Lost Wages]

I think it's also worth 3-betting

I think 3 betting four players with 88 is a definite mistake. You are playing for a set in this situation. You cost youself an extra bet and drive out the blinds who you would just as soon keep in to pay you off when you do hit a set. If the raiser is the only one in then 3-betting or folding is usually correct.

Lost Wages

[Lost Wages]

Betting the flop also means you may get checked to on the turn. If you get a lot of calls you can check the turn. If you get a lot of folds you can decide if you want to bet.

Lost Wages

[Elizabeth]

[ QUOTE ]
If I check here, and then get bet into on the turn, I have little idea how to play correctly.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it would be an obvious fold most the time. You'd have an unimproved pair of 8s in a 7 way pot, with 1 or 2 overcards to your pair. You can't tell if a bet was a missed checkraise or a semibluff. Even if you are ahead, you have to survive one more card.

If an undercard came and it was checked around to me ... I'd be surprised but I think I would bet then.

If an undercard came, and there's a bet with no callers ... then I think the decision could be tough. However, if you bet out on the flop, get a few callers, there could be a tough decision with a lot of turn cards as well. Especially when they check to the bettor.

[rharless]

drive out the blinds who you would just as soon keep in to pay you off when you do hit a set

Good point -- you're right.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
They can't fold if you don't give them the opportunity, though, and I guess that's worth one SB. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. That's why you bet in hand two. As someone else said, that'll sometimes get it checked to you on the turn, at which point you can choose to check or bet depending on the turn card, number of callers, etc.

[Elizabeth]

In hand 1, which I thought there wouldn't be much debate on, everyone folded. Sometimes there's nothing you can do; nobody had anything then. I still don't playing around with a free card in a 6 player pot, even if I am full.

In hand 2, thank you all for your comments. I expected that it could go either way. I took the free card. A jack fell, the BB bet out, and everyone folded. But then personally, lately I am trying to work on when to choose not to play.

Thanks everyone