Q for Mason Malmuth:

[doublesnapper]

Do your figures for EV and SD at 60-120 and above still hold at around 1.5 and 13?. If so, what has kept you from moving to higher limits?. Are the higher games too hard or not beatable at all or not really that common?.

Although poker is a relatively new occupation for me (max. is 10-20 online), I have always thought that the biggest edge in gambling was the capability of doubling one's bankroll several times and I think that playing for income has much more inherent risk than playing to double (although sometimes one must move lower if one's bankroll suffers).

What are your views on this?.

Thanks in advance.

Best

DoubleSnapper

[Clarkmeister]

I'm pretty sure David has written that expectations for an expert in a game the size you are talking about drop from 1.5BB in a 15-30 to about 1BB in a 30-60 and perhaps .75BB in a 60-120.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but that's what my feeble mind seems to recall.

[PokerPrince]

Ya that sounds about right Clarky.

PokerPrince

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

I think you have this right. I also doubt if there is anyone at $15-$30 making 1.5 big bets an hour for if there was they would quickly move up. So that number is a hypothetical for what an expert is capable of making at that limit.

Best wishes,
Mason

[mike l.]

"I also doubt if there is anyone at $15-$30 making 1.5 big bets an hour for if there was they would quickly move up."

you need to rethink this. the 15-30 games in LA for instance are so so good because it is the break in limit for mid limits here. so we get 6-12 players taking shots. also it's right around the comfort level for a lot of recreational (read: awful) players who like to play regularly. so ive seen several players (including myself) do extremely well right around this level for years and basically ignore the relatively tougher brown and black chip games at commerce.

[OrangeHeat]

Hi Mason,

I am winning 1.5 BB/Hr with a SD of 11.5 at the 15/30 level over the long term. I play higher occasionaly but I choose to take the $45/hr and stay in my psychological comfort zone /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Could I make more playing 20-40 and 30/60 - probably yes and probably in less hours. However the competition gets tougher, it feels more like work, and I like the action of the 2/3 blind in the 15/30 games.

I would probably amend your statement to say most experts move up.

I know one couple who can beat 5/10 for almost 1.75 BB/hr but they choose to not move up because they have an aversion to risk.

And then you have some of the zoo guys who can wallop LL (3/6 and under) online games for upwards of 2 BB/hr and are satisfied there and choose not to move up.

Anyway I think the .75BB/hr number for the 60-120 sounds right.

One question - do you think this is a linear decrease as you move up into the 100-200, 500-1000, etcc...or more of an exponential one?

I am guessing that by the time you have four figures in the limit you have to be down to .5 BB/hr with a large SD.

Orange

[Duke]

You're right on. I only know one person who I would consider an expert that plays 15-30 exclusively. He runs bad every time he moves up, and I think it has to do with his comfort zone.

When you have a wife and a kid to support, you want to keep a ridiculous bankroll set aside for poker, and when that starts to disappear slowly when you try playing for double the limits, well, I think it has an effect on you. Eventually you ask yourself why you're even trying to move up, since you make more than enough playing 15-30.

Though I can understand him, I'm not like him. I'm always taking shots, doing OK, and then spending enough so that I have to start over. And you know, it's not that bad for me since I have no expenses, no wife, and no kid. Sometimes I'm forced to play small again for a while, but who cares? I work my way back up faster the next time since I'm a better card player.

~D

[Vehn]

I used to think I was happy where I was playing 15/30 and didn't want to move to 30/60. That lasted about a month. Yes the players aren't as bad. It doesn't matter. If you can crush 15/30 play higher and win more money in less time.