Ruling, please

[georgejetson]

We had a situation the other night noone had encountered before and didn't know how to handle it. I'd like to hear from anyone who has been in this situation before or who knows how a cardroom would have handled it:

The game is hold'em, we're starting a new hand. The dealer accidentally flips up a card preflop, and whenever that happens, the card in question becomes the first burn. Anyway, he finishes the deal properly. Then UTG opens for a raise, UTG+1 reraises, then it's three-bet from MP. One cold-call from LP. Everyone folds to UTG, who then folds, UTG+1 calls.

Now, the dealer burns another card, then several people quickly speak up to point out he's already burned one. So he slides the 'new' burn card out of the muck, flips it face up and then flips up two more. Okay, assume the rest of the hand played out like usual and fast forward to the showdown. Only the original three-bettor and cold-caller are left. Three-bettor checks and calls. Cold-caller shows pocket KK. He'd flopped a set and takes it (K was second flop card); other guy mucks. Okay, here's where it gets ugly...

When the winner is almost done dragging the pot, UTG speaks up and says, in reference to the first flop card, Qh, 'I folded that card preflop.' In other words, after the hand is over, he tells the dealer that when the dealer tried to burn the second time, he pulled a card out of the muck that had already been in play. Of course, noone has any idea what card really came off the deck and should have been the first flop card.

Now what? Assume we went through the whole 'Are you sure, are you *positive* you folded that card.' Also assume that we all agreed if he or anyone was ever to face the same situation, that person should speak up immediately, or if they don't, they probably should never say a word.

Anyway, any ideas on what the heck we should have done with the pot? And also, what about the flop? Should the dealer have even pulled a card out of the muck at all? If not, what then?

Thanks in advance,

George

[Bob T.]

Everyone played the hand in good faith, with the cards that were on the board. The only one who had any idea, was UTG, and he had folded. I would award the pot to the set of Kings.

I guess, just to be sure, you could have the next three cards, be the flop. Then burn the second burn, which would have been the card pulled from the muck, and play with the original turn and river cards.

Whenever an accidentally exposed card becomes the burn, you should either place it faceup in front of the dealer, or faceup on top of the deck after the first two cards are dealt, to give the dealer a reminder that he already has a burn card.

[Easy E]

Assuming that he'd have no reason to lie about it, it's too late to change anything. The odds of replacing that Queen with another card, one that would have helped the person mucking on the river, are too low to worry about. At least it wasn't a King, which would have started a BIG fight.

Too much action occurred on the hand and board cards to change anything. Maybe assess a dealer's bozo penalty, as well as a penalty for the idiot who a) didn't speak up right away and then b)decided to cause a problem by speaking up as someone is dragging the pot- actually, make it TWO penalties for the UTG bozo.

Now, the stickier situation would have been the mucked card being pulled back and used in a 7stud game, where the player who received it won with it.

I think you made a mistake retrieving the second burn card in the first place. It would have been better to just have 2 burn cards on that street and deal the three cards that followed.

In fact, that may be the best policy for the exposed card. Burn a second card anyway, as if you'd never flipped the first card.

I'm not sure how they would handle it in the casinos.

[Easy E]

"you could have the next three cards, be the flop. Then burn the second burn, which would have been the card pulled from the muck, and play with the original turn and river cards"

I think not using this card, if the person spoke up when they should (early), is the best policy. No chance of anything going on then, in case the dealer took the wrong card from the muck.. or DIDN'T, and someone is scamming in some way.
Good ruling, Bill

[drewjustdrew]

I don't usually play tournaments with ringers or cheats, so I try not to burn cards in the first place. But in this case, I would say you had a full table that had no problem at the time. The supposed fact that it was the one player's card is irrelevant. The active players had the same information to base decisions on.

[LetsRock]

In regards to your situation, the knucklehead who claimed he mucked the Q should have said so at the begining. What you do at that point is just deal 3 fresh cards from the deck for the flop.

The fact that it was mucked didn't have any bearing on the hand, award the pot to the kings and get a new dealer. If you don't have card markers in your group lose the burn card play, it just doen't matter. If you do have card markers, lose the game.

In my regular games, we don't burn cards. If a card is exposed preflop before the deal is complete, misdeal, redeal. If it happens after the deal is complete, the card stays exposed and is included in the flop to come, the dealer's hand is dead, and play continues. If the exposed card helped someone yet to act make a decision, "oh well".
We don't have many of these tyupes of mistakes.

In our home tourneys, our rules have a dealing routine where the hands are dealt and the flop and 2 end cards are dealt (face down of course) before the hand is considered officially dealt. Our home tourneys often include a number of "non-players" and this method was determined to minimize opportunities for clumsy mistakes.

If any card is exposed before the betting starts, the hand is redealt. (The rules include advice to not look at your cards until it's official to save yourself the pain of giving up something good.) If a player exposes his own cards, his problem. If a player exposes another's cards, he is out of the hand and fined (something like T5000 into the pot). Second offense is DQ.

If the dealer exposes any cards before they're due (4 cards on the flop etc.) his hand is dead, the card stays exposed and a betting round is eliminated.

I don't think we've had one single exposed incident, but we have the rules in place in case there is one.

[GuyOnTilt]

The fact that it was mucked didn't have any bearing on the hand, award the pot to the kings and get a new dealer. If you don't have card markers in your group lose the burn card play, it just doen't matter. If you do have card markers, lose the game.

Um...no. First, Definitely keep the burn card. It's part of the rules of the game. And if anybody knew that they had a card-marker in the game, they wouldn't be allowed to sit, so saying "if you don't have a card-marker then don't burn" is pointless. If there is a cheater in the game, then nobody knows about it.

Second, a card that touches the muck cannot be removed. EVER. PERIOD. The moment a card touches the muck pile, it's dead. The dealer should never have pulled the card out of the muck. What should happen is the whole muck pile should be shuffled up along with the rest of the deck, minus the exposed card, and they hand should continue. That's how cardrooms have handled similar situations in the past when I've been there.

GoT

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is a cheater in the game, then nobody knows about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably true, but you generally know if "someone" is monkeying with the deck.

you're absolutely correct about the mucked card being dead and I meant to say something about it. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Paul2432]

The procedure in the casino is to keep the burn cards separate from the muck (at least in AC). If this was done, it would be straight forward to identify the correct card.

If this situation somehow arrived in a casino the play would stand. Any time substantial action has taken place the play stands. The only exception is if the deck is discovered to be missing cards or containing extra cards.

Paul

[Lottery Larry]

i think i might know who you are. if i do not, do you normally play $6/12 and above?