Raising with QJs

[Rico Suave]

Fairly average table with a couple of play any 2 guys, although not involved in this hand. The BB is relatively new so I have no read on him.

Party Poker 2/4 (9 handed)
Rico has J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is MP3

Rico raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls

Flop(6 1/2 SB): 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, Rico calls, Button calls

Turn(4 3/4 BB): 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets, Rico calls, Button folds

River(6 3/4 BB): 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB bets, Rico raises, BB calls


I have been trying to be more aggressive with my pf raising, especially open raising from later positions. Is this raise ok? Also, how about the flop call--it felt so bleh.

Any input is welcome

--Rico

[Jeffro]

I would open raise this most of the time here, and there is nothing wrong with the call here, you want to keep the button in.

[AviD]

I think you played it fine, and the flop was nice. Flush draw, Straight draw, Straight Flush draw.

I'd probably put him on Ax in the BB, caught the Ace on the flop and tried to push you out to the river. You outdrew him, but I think you drew with decent odds.

If the flush/straight didn't come and a Q or J dropped...that would have been interesting. How would you have played that if he bet?

[Rico Suave]

Hey Avid:

Quote: If the flush/straight didn't come and a Q or J dropped...that would have been interesting. How would you have played that if he bet?

Because I did not have a read on him at all, I would probably revert to my weak tight roots, give him credit for the A, and fold /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

--Rico

[Luke]

Hi Rico,

The preflop raise is fine.

Calling is not terrible but I would have raised the flop. Some reasons include: knock out the button - you might free up a Q or J as an out, conceal hand (gain action if flush or straight hits), either take a free card on turn or decide to semi-bluff.

[Lost Wages]

Preflop: Raise is fine from MP3.

Flop: Holy crap Rico, you have a straight flush draw! Raise!!! You are better than even money to make a straight-flush, flush or straight by the river. You want to get as much money into the pot on this flop as possible. If you just call and the button calls you have collected one extra bet. That's the same as if you raise, the button folds and the BB calls. Plus, who knows? Maybe the button will call 2 or the BB will reraise, if so cap it! Playing aggressively also puts you in a position to bluff the river if you do miss.

Lost Wages

[george w of poker]

13 outs isn't better than even money is it? its about 13:23 to catch by the river right? i don't know if raising is the right move or not. seems better to leave the button in.

If you just call and the button calls you have collected one extra bet. That's the same as if you raise, the button folds and the BB calls. ... or the BB will reraise, if so cap it!

its not quite the same because you have to put in two bets yourself. is capping really correct? doesn't seem to be.

[Bob T.]

Open raising in MP with this hand is fine.

If the BB, is the kind to bet, and then fold to a raise on the flop, raising might be better. Or if he would bet middle pair in that situation, you might want to raise, and eliminate the button if he is on a gutshot draw. Would he coldcall with KJ or KQ? Then you could make your pair outs better if you are ahead of a pair of tens in the BB's hand. As it is, by calling you get 2-1 on the money you put in on each street.

[Bob T.]

13 outs isn't better than even money is it? its about 13:23 to catch by the river right?

13 out of 23 is slightly better than even money.

[Lost Wages]

Yikes! He has 12 outs since it's a gutshot, not the 15 that I was thinking so it 1.2:1 against improving with 2 cards to come. Still it doesn't change how you should play the hand. If there were a bunch of players left to act then calling and hoping to 3-bet a raise behind you might be a viable option. In a shorthanded pot you need to consider that showing down the best hand isn't the only way to win. You have a hand that is going to see the river no matter what so be aggressive and give youself 2 ways to win.

Lost Wages

[Bob T.]

Because I did not have a read on him at all, I would probably revert to my weak tight roots, give him credit for the A, and fold .


Wow. Vehn has said that when there is a raise preflop, and a bet on the flop comes from a blind hand, a high percentage of the time that is someone value betting a draw. By the river on this hand, there will be several big bets in the pot, getting 7 to 1 on a river call, I think you probably have enough odds to make a look him up on the river.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Bob:

You are probably right about calling him down if I hit the Q or J. Like I said, my roots are weak tight /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Quote: Vehn has said that when there is a raise preflop, and a bet on the flop comes from a blind hand, a high percentage of the time that is someone value betting a draw

I have not heard this before, but since you are referring to it, I assume you agree. Not that I do not respect Vehn's opinion, (I read his posts and have much respect for him), but is this just a random observation or is the a commonly help opinion of most experienced players?

By the way, the BB in this hand had 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, for a low pair and a flush draw on the flop. Maybe I should pay way more attention to Vehn's posts.

--Rico

[george w of poker]

i guess i don't know what even money means. i just woke up so bear with me. assuming he is has 13 outs after the flop (9 for the flush and 4 kings for the straight) he is a 47:13 underdog, or 3.6:1. i'm not sure how to calculate for two cards to come but i think its roughly twice as good odds right? so about 1.8:1? that doesn't seam right.

anyways, 13:46 with two cards to come or i converted to 13:23 (i don't know if thats right) is even money? 13 times you win and 23 times you lose. am i missing something huge here? it just doesn't seem like even money to me.

[Bob T.]

Oops. I just woke up also.

[BottlesOf]

You calculate the odds by dividing the number of cards that won't help you by the number of cards that will. X:Y. This means X+Y will equal 52 - the number of cards you know. (2 for your hand plus 3 4 or 5) on the board.

Therefore, X+Y will always equal 47 46 or 45. Your 47:13 is therefore a mistake as there are not 60 cards in the deck.

[Bob T.]

I have not heard this before, but since you are referring to it, I assume you agree. Not that I do not respect Vehn's opinion, (I read his posts and have much respect for him), but is this just a random observation or is the a commonly help opinion of most experienced players?

By the way, the BB in this hand had 9 7 , for a low pair and a flush draw on the flop. Maybe I should pay way more attention to Vehn's posts.

He said it, as an observation in a post about how to play a hand a while ago. I happen to agree that it is certainly a possibility whenever it occurs, so I always consider it when that sequence happens. They bet out, instead of going for a checkraise, so that must mean something, right?

Finally, did you see how your opponent played his pair + flush draw on this hand?

And yeah, consider everything that vehn says in his posts. The kid can flat out play.

[Bob T.]

You have 13 outs twice. That works out to almost, but not quite 26 outs, so you are a little better than even money to make your hand.

[george w of poker]

yep, thanks. i figured that out in the shower.

here is the definitive calculation.

its 12 outs (i was counting the king of spades twice)

turn: you miss your hand 34 out of 46 times
river: you miss your nad 33 out of 45 times

multiplying 34/46 and 33/45 gives you 1122/2070

so you miss your hand 1122 times out of 2070 so you make it 948 times. which is 45.8% of the time or a 1.18:1 underdog.

i'm pretty sure thats right

i'm really retarded without caffeine

[WarmonkEd]

I would raise the flop. That may give you the option of a free card on the turn. If not, you're still getting good odds plus information about his hand.

[Jeremy'sSpoken]

[ QUOTE ]
Oops. I just woke up also.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was 12:30 when you posted that! Man I need to find a new line of work