How to play the turn?

Which sequence makes you more inclined to muck on the turn?


The flop was seen 3 handed after you raised preflop with black KK. Flop is [6h 7d 9d]. BB checks, you bet, button folds, BB checkraises, you 3-bet, BB calls.


The turn is the Ah.


Now which sequence makes you more inclined to muck the turn (if any).


Scenario A. BB bets the turn.


Scenario B. BB checkraises the turn.


Assume BB is reliable enough to follow up the river with a bet in both scenarios.


Thanks in advance for the input. I was the BB in this hand, and I had the preflop raiser read for what he had (overpair, no ace). I'm not sure what the correct turn play was in this type of spot. I had 7h8h and wasn't sure which betting action would be more likely to get the preflop raiser to muck the better hand.

I wouldn't muck either way. There is enough chance that BB has a hand like 78 or 10h9h to make it worth seeing a showdown.


From your point of view, I'd probably lead the turn. KK ain't laying down for a check raise, and he might put you on a hand like A9 and drop.

if i were the BB i would go for checkraise here.


my thinking in these situations is that either i get a free shot at making my hand (check,check) or i get try to bulldoze (check,bet,raise).


one reason not to bet out (not to say you shouldnt, just one factor) is that if you get raised (by say AdKd or just an imaginative player putting you on a draw) then you either havent accomplished either objecive or you have to 3-bet to accomplish the latter and its just expensive to work out in the long run.


anyway, theres one case for checking then raising.


brad

"I had the preflop raiser read for what he had (overpair, no ace). I'm not sure what the correct turn play was in this type of spot"


I presume your read was not confirmed until he reraised on the flop. What's wrong with check-calling the turn? No one so far even considered it. It's a rare day when a guy with KK is just going to lie down after such a flurry. I wouldn't. Seems like when a player wants to put in three bets on the flop, and then the ace comes, and they bet out, I almost never put them on an ace because the only way they can have one is if they had exactly an ace-high flush draw on the flop. With the clustered flop in your hand, I'd put them on exactly the type of hand you had, and if a scare card comes on the river and they bet, then the ace makes it a touch easier to fold, since my quick call on the turn has to make them think I'm in auto call mode on the river, even though I'm not.


Tommy

I think the check-raise is more likely to get him to muck KK than a bet would be. this is likely to be the psychologically best way to get your semi-bluff to work against a good player with KK, and is how I would go about it, as long as you could be sure of a turn bet being made regardless of the ace.


Dave in Cali

Tommy,


Check-calling is exactly what I did. A diamond came on the river, flushing the board and the river got checked down. He showed, I mucked, ni han sur.


Afterwards I felt a little like I might have let that hand get away from me. Especially since with a checkraise on the turn, I can represent the diamond flush as well as my own heart flush which might have gotten me the pot with the diamond coming.

"as long as you could be sure of a turn bet being made regardless of the ace."


That he might check-behind after the ace comes looks like a problem for the check-raise plan. But I don't think it is. How bad would it be to get a free card with a draw against a likely big pair? To me, that's a win, not a loss.


And consider that the only thing that makes it even possible to maybe bluff him out is that an ace hit. Without the ace on the turn, no one would try to bluff this hand all the way to the river, right? So, the ace, while making a bluff possible, also makes a free card more likely.


The best plan -- be it drawing cheap or doing a convincing bluff --- starts with a check on the turn. That's the main thing to file away here I think. We can always start out checking to draw cheap, and then change our minds and pop the check-raise out there, if he happens to bet, and if we happen to feel like it.


:::filing:::


Tommy

Checking is harder on the BB. If you check, he may be afraid to bet, fearing a check raise. On the other hand, he doesn't want to give you a free card. So he has to make a difficult decision. If you bet, calling would be an easy decision. He's got more chances of erring if you make him make hard decisions, which you did.


Check raising would have made more sense if you were planning to call him on the river. In that case, raising may well have prevented him from betting on the river, in which case it wouldn't cost you any more bets, but you could have gotten an extra bet had you hit. But since you were planning to fold, I think you played it correctly.


Here's something to consider, however. Perhaps you weren't checking enough strong hands on the turn in previous hands. S&M recommend often checking on the turn with good hands so you can get free cards when you're drawing. The fact that he bet into you shows perhaps he wasn't afraid of being check raised, so maybe you weren't checking your strong hands on the turn enough.

Your plan to simply check and take the free card is certainly a viable option here. It may even be the best play available out of all the options. I guess my point wasn't that checking was a bad play, but that IF you wanted to "make a move" on the turn, the check-raise would be more likely to work than a bet would be. But if you just took the free card, you would probably be doing just fine. Good response.


Dave in Cali